Politics and supply requirements aside, I don't see the problem with being issued an M16 over an M4. As I recall, those M4s are having a hard time reaching out in the long-range engagements they're seeing in Afghanistan. Those extra barrel inches can only help of you're stuck with the 5.56.
The M16 only has an increase of 50 meters over the M4 for a point target. 500 to 550 and most guys can't shoot well enough to notice the difference anyways. You will notice the difference in length between the two weapons quickly though between climbing mountains and riding in vehicles with no room in them.
Originally Posted by Xader
Let the military have a bake sale
Im sure if the military had there hands on IOTVs or plate carrier technology back then, you would have it. And you can carry +8 mags or more if you wanted to just fine with body armor....
Originally Posted by coyotemoon
I've been lurking and reading on this website for quite some time now and have yet to post, but I am intrigued with reading this and think my input might be enlightening for some of you guys.
At the moment I am a volunteer in the paratroopers of the Israeli Defense Force (I am actually on guard duty as we speak). I am an American citizen born and raised in Alabama and have always loved and had great respect and interest in the United States military. I even believe the Marine Corps is in my future when I return.
On to my point... I think Americans have a somewhat spoiled view on the military and what is and should be expected. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not. I think that a country should provide its protectors and those that are put in danger in it's name to the upmost it can afford.
The vast majority of citizens here in Israel are forced to join the military at the age of 18 and do so because the country simply wouldn't exist otherwise. The surrounding countries which vastly outnumber it in bodies and resources openly wish for its destruction and the country is essentially always at war in some form or another, be it rockets coming from Gaza or Lebanon, or the constant threat of terrorist attack on its own soil.
To refer to the Rumsfeld quote earlier, Israel at all times has to work with what it has simply because it can afford nothing else. The entire military is built on hand-me-downs from the American army. For the first 8 months of my service I was given an m16, and although it was a hybrid of who knows how many guns, the serial number on the lower dated back to 1967 iirc. Our APCs are American hand me down and I find parts in there from the 60's-70's.
Granted now I have my M4 and many of my friends have the new Tavor(some love it; others hate it), most of the army is built on a framework that dates back to the 80s. Our Hummers are used American bits that date back to who knows when; let's just say I hope we never see a RPG or IED, because the outcome would be ugly.
Combat soldiers here get paid a whopping $175ish a month, and that's more than the rest of the lot. Forget post army benefits. For three years these kids live like American soldiers live when they are deployed, not in the sense of danger, but in lifestyle and amenities. I haven't seen a weight room on a base since I left training, I live in an underground bunker with no ventilation next to the room with the back up generator that wreaks of gasoline. You get hurt or sick, the medic is at the outpost a mile and a half from here, so you can walk over and hope he is there. If you are actually messed up good and need a real doctor, you get an appointment in a few days in the army run office on the other side of the country. There is a funny saying here in the Israeli army for any/all injuries: "be strong, drink water".
Moral of the story here is that what American troops have is hands down the best situation in the world. Could it be better? Always. But kids here could only dream of serving in a military like America's, but unfortunately that isn't a choice. I think the whole situation here is different when viewed in perspective.
Very good post about the realities in other armies.
Sadam--dead. Bin Laden--dead. And we're not packing our bags to come home until when?
When "American Interests" [READ - OIL] are secured.
Originally Posted by OldVet
On another note...Just because the top two leaders are eliminated, does not mean that the threat is gone.
In WWII if Hitler had been taken out in the early stages, before we actually got a strong foothold in Germany, I have no doubt that it would have lasted a lot longer, and a different outcome. There were those in command (also short in the succession line) with the same goal as Hitler that were waaayyyy more capable of achieving that goal.
I am just as irritated as the rest of you in sending our troops to third world countries to play LEO in the name of "American Interests" [READ - OIL]. The UN and NATO want us to step in, then send them a bill for the expenditures. Can't afford it? Well, call us when you can.
Stop playing on the Internet when you're on guard duty, Bryan.
The length of the M16 is a big draw back in modern day war fighting. Getting in and out of vehicles,clearing building ect the M4 is far better weapon.
Originally Posted by Xader
The M4 has also proven to be very effective. Modern day soldiers do not sit around making 1000 yard shots the movie trash they fight up front and personal.
For many tower and other security duties they issue M14 to designated marksman's NOT snipers .
What most think goes on in the infantry and what really does is two different worlds.
Any M16's still in inventory are old. Most of them were shipped out to reserve and Guard units years ago. The last version of the true M16 was the M16A4 and by the time it was in use the M4 had pretty much taken over.
I can sure tell many of you are not aware of "today's Army".
My son is an Army Scout and presently stationed at Ft. Benning, GA., served a year combat tour in Iraq, and is making a career in the military. As a parent, I guess I get a little more inside information than is released to the general public?
Recently he came home for a visit and brought some of his TA-50 gear with him to show me. I began to quiz him about items I was issued with my TA-50 when I fought in the Civil War. Come to find out, he's had many shortages in essential equipment for well over a year, and was short during his deployment in Iraq.
I started looking over his issue and immediately noticed it was of a quality I wouldn't take on a hunting trip! I can't imagine it meeting military specifications? Then he goes on to tell me, if you want the good stuff, you have to purchase it on your own.
I'll give you just ONE example, boots. An Army marches on it's belly and feet, and foot wear, next to your weapon, is the most important piece of equipment in combat. Having the same size feet as my son, I wore those brown desert pieces of issued crap for an hour to see how they felt. The quality and fit seemed to be factory fourths and a waste of cowhide. Then I tried on his brown desert boots he purchased for $80.00 out of pocket. Those were fit for extended use.
There's no doubt in my former military mind, the government is skimping and shirking its duty to properly cloth and equip our troops to meet / exceed combat criteria.
Anyone remember the out cry of all our troops getting killed and maimed from IED'S due to no / insufficient armor on the vehicles, the American concern of the military penny pinching, and the organizations that funded, purchased and installed additional vehicle armor on military vehicles? Is your sons / daughters future quality of life and survivability of an IED worth a few more fiat dollars of the out of control printing presses worth it?
The soldier gets a small pittance monthly for uniform maintenance, etc.
It's a disgrace the richest and most powerful nation on earth sends it's combat troops in harms way ill equipped to accomplish it's fighting mission. And because of penny pinching, not providing the best equipment / materials made to insure our troops have the best chance of victory and survival.
What gets me... You can sit on your lazy butt, complain about your living conditions and how you're owed, collecting food stamps, Section 8 housing, WIC, Aid to Families with Children, Welfare, etc... And the government calls it an ENTITLEMENT!
Our troops are fighting for our freedoms, so we can rest peacefully at night, get up in the morning and speak ENGLISH to our loved ones, and that the lazy can still sit around complaining about they need moe tax payer money their entitled to.
What are our nations military troops ENTITLED to?
Sorry about the rant, but when you have a horse in the race, you tend to get that way.
When we first got to Afghanistan our whole company was only issued 22 rounds of 5.56 ammo....We had to wait till the unit we were replacing were done with there RIP process before we had full combat loads :embarassed:
Would the M4 be more useful? In many situations, sure! But the M16 is still an effective fighting weapon, and will still do the job. Just ask a Marine.
Originally Posted by Smitty901
Is it ideal? No, but many have been effective with far worse...
Rotorblade....you get in touch with your nephew when he gets in theater and let us know if he got geared up properly
if not I'll start the DC care package to send him