Todays Military...do you want this for your kid?

This is a discussion on Todays Military...do you want this for your kid? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; To stay ahead of the curve. Advancement. It can do what no other of our current top-of-the-line fighters can do. It regularly whips F-16s and ...

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  1. #76
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    To stay ahead of the curve. Advancement. It can do what no other of our current top-of-the-line fighters can do. It regularly whips F-16s and F-15 in air-to-air, even with more experienced pilots in the older jets.

    The F-22 is designed for a single purpose--air superiority, and it's excellent at that. The next fighter, the joint strike fighter, is no more than the old F-4 Phantom--the last "joint services" aircraft to be designed. While a fine aircraft (great as a gunboat in air-to-ground, okay in air-to-air role), any "multi-role" aircraft will be pretty good at all roles, but not exceptional at all roles.

    Perhaps you feel we should have stuck with the P-38s? After all, they were good enough for WWII. All combat aircraft have a limited lifespan, structually and technology-wise. That's why the army has Abrams instead of Shermans, and why the navy is nuclear instead of oil-burning.
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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    To stay ahead of the curve. Advancement. It can do what no other of our current top-of-the-line fighters can do. It regularly whips F-16s and F-15 in air-to-air, even with more experienced pilots in the older jets.

    Perhaps you feel we should have stuck with the P-38s? After all, they were good enough for WWII. All combat aircraft have a limited lifespan, structually and technology-wise. That's why the army has Abrams instead of Shermans, and why the navy is nuclear instead of oil-burning.
    You are missing the point sir. Our pilots and our top line fighters right now can "whip" anybody's butt. Do you have any idea how much the F22 program was? I mean really.
    Your post also was a tad condencending. I was bringing up a valid question. There is a difference in recognizing when you already have superiority and how much you need to actually stay ahead without blowing billions on programs not needed.

    At wha point and cost is it getting too much and most importantly where can the money be spent best. I have spent the bettr part of my life in the military or as a contractor. I know darn well what the troop s have and what they need. Not every soldier, airman, sailor, marine needs the latest and greatest. I know that does not win popularity contest but it is the truth.

    We already spend an insane amount of money on equipment and sytems that are not needed. Bases stay open not for national security reasons but for local economy reasons. I have seen the extreme waste that goes on. The amount of contracters is staggering high.
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  4. #78
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    Oldvet don't forget the reasons behind the F-16 and F/A-18. One of the main factors driving them was the size and unit cost of the F-14 and F-15. The cost per unit of the F-22 is approximately ten times that (in current dollars) of the aircraft it is replacing.
    The Tiger and Panzer were superior to the T-34 but as Marshall Zukhov said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Nope.

    After being raised around veterans of all ages my whole life and hearing how the military uses you then throws you away, I wont be trying to convince my son to enlist though I'd support his decision if he chose to and be very proud.

    I work for the VA counseling veterans with PTSD and TBI and I can't believe the treatment they received after all they've done. Some of the stories I've heard are nothing short of horrific (their treatment, not the war stories).

    -- I don't always post from my mobile but when I do, I prefer Tapatalk.
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  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Why do we need the F-22 Raptor?
    A MUCH MUCH bigger problem is we spend trillions on developing new hardware and then when the time comes to actually buy and field them they make the cuts down to ludicrously low numbers and start pouring trillions on new developments where it happens all over. B-2 and F-22 are prime examples.

    F-22 is needed if we ever want to win an air war against competent adversary (absolutely top priority). F-35 on the other hand is a political boondoggle.

  7. #81
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    The question of why we need the F-22 reminds me of a problem the military has always had. We always head into the next war thinking it will be like the last one. As we ramp down our efforts in the armpit of the world many decision makers will have A-stan and Iraq in their minds as we move forward. That's fine if it turns out our next war is in the middle east (which isn't an unreasonable thought). But if we end up fighting China, Russia, Germany (hey its the Germans- never say never!) or any other advanced nation projects like the F-22 will be very important.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Last weekend while traveling from Las Vegas to Southern California I stopped at a Bob's Big Boy in Baker (a small roadside town near Death Valley in the middle of the desert). There were 4 or 5 bus loads of US Army troops eating at the fast food stops in town. They were all wearing camo which seemed a little odd as the nearest active military base is the Marine Logistics center in Yermo. I asked one where they were heading and he said Denver. I then asked him where they originated from and he said a base in Northern California. When I asked why the Army didn't just fly them to Denver he just shrugged his shoulders and got back on the bus.
    Is this really how we treat our solders now? The Government wants to give everybody free contraceptives but doesn't have a problem making these kids do a 3 day bus ride!
    But wait, there's more..........
    I just got off the phone with my nephew who is a Navy Corpsman, he recently was assigned to SOCOM and just finished his SEAR training. He is shipping out to Afghanistan in 3 days and tells me he won't be getting the tricked out M4 or the Springfield 45 as they "ran out" and there is "no budget" for new ones. He will be issued the M-9 ( and I'm assuming an M-16) instead, but......they don't have enough magazines so he has to buy his own!!!!! Also, his med bag or whatever they call them now will only have about 25% of the stuff he is supposed to have when he deploys.....once again...no budget.
    This is total BS. I guess I've always assumed that our kids had the best equipment money could buy when they deployed...this was quite an eye opener.
    Real Disappointed.....
    My nephew is now settled in and I've started receiving e-mails from him. When I asked what him and the guys over there needed right now he said "Coffee". I would have guessed socks, junk food or magazines, but if that's what they need then that's what I'm sending.
    I'm employed in the defense/aerospace industry and our General Manager is an ex-Marine so he offered to cover the cost of shipping all the coffee I could collect/buy. I'm in contact with Don Francisco's coffee (Gavina), and they are considering a large donation as well (should be finalized next week). I created a web page for donations if anyone is inclined to help make a soldiers day.
    I've never done the website thing before, so if you have any suggestions or ideas please feel free to post them!

    NOTE: I JUST RE-POSTED THIS LINK USING A NEW TOPIC SO IT WOULDN'T GET BURIED HERE. IF THIS WASN'T APPROPRIATE PLEASE LET ME KNOW!


    RBC-ITB coffee drive
    Last edited by Rotorblade; October 14th, 2012 at 09:22 AM. Reason: ADDED NOTE
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  9. #83
    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    I did a 22 hour bus ride out of missouri to virginia when i graduated basic.It is just a fact of life in the military that often you have to embrace the suck .A long bus ride is nothing compared what a military personell may run into during a career.Any adversity can be useful in building the mental and physical toughness it takes to get through a deployment alive.Challenges in life (even low level ) and training are just opportunitiies to practice at survival.
    The easy way is always mined.

  10. #84
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    America thought it had some pretty good fighter aircraft at the outbreak of WWII--until the Zero showed up. It seemed we failed to stay ahead of the competition. And how long does it take to establish a new base to replace closed ones if the need arose?

    While there are certainly some military programs and expenditures that make one go, "Huh?" However, that money supports a lot of jobs and feeds a lot of families. One only needs to see the effects here of the shutdown of the space shuttle program on a very large portion of the FL economy. It's more than just a few people finding new employment, many local businesses shut down, and those employees go on unemployment, and soon all those "non-space shuttle" workers are having homes foreclosed. It a really bad snowball that's extremely difficult to stop once it starts that downhill roll.

    I wince when I imagine the effect a large military spending cutback will have when spread across our nation. Those "government" jobs will be lost, as will the income taxes those paychecks produce, the sales taxes on merchandise bought by those paychecks will be lost, businesses will cutback on employment and benefits--and that huge snaowball will take off.

    If the budget must be reduced, then let's begin by stopping the bleeding of American money that flows out across the borders.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  11. #85
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    The problem, OldVet, is that it's not the Government's job to keep open a base (or whatever) at a cost of billions and billions of dollars so that the mom and pop shop down the street doesn't go out of business. Most of us here are fiscal conservatives, and complain about "entitlement" spending, welfare, and so on. Keeping NASA at employment levels that aren't required for it to do it's determined mission just so Titusville doesn't lose its tax base is welfare under a more insidious guise. Either you are for responsible government spending and a free market economy, or you aren't. You can't pick and choose your own pet welfare program and complain about the rest...

    This from a career govt employee and a native of the Space Coast....
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    The problem, OldVet, is that it's not the Government's job to keep open a base (or whatever) at a cost of billions and billions of dollars so that the mom and pop shop down the street doesn't go out of business. Most of us here are fiscal conservatives, and complain about "entitlement" spending, welfare, and so on. Keeping NASA at employment levels that aren't required for it to do it's determined mission just so Titusville doesn't lose its tax base is welfare under a more insidious guise. Either you are for responsible government spending and a free market economy, or you aren't. You can't pick and choose your own pet welfare program and complain about the rest...

    This from a career govt employee and a native of the Space Coast....
    Very well said, and I totally agree with you.

    I just wrote three more paragraphs and decided to delete them and shut up so this doesn't get derailed or closed.
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  13. #87
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    I personally am stuck at the comment about losing income tax due to cutting government jobs... Which are funded by income tax payments. Cutting the whole saves more than getting a portion back doesn't it? Honestly, am I missing something here?
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
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  14. #88
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    America thought it had some pretty good fighter aircraft at the outbreak of WWII--until the Zero showed up. It seemed we failed to stay ahead of the competition. And how long does it take to establish a new base to replace closed ones if the need arose?

    While there are certainly some military programs and expenditures that make one go, "Huh?" However, that money supports a lot of jobs and feeds a lot of families. One only needs to see the effects here of the shutdown of the space shuttle program on a very large portion of the FL economy. It's more than just a few people finding new employment, many local businesses shut down, and those employees go on unemployment, and soon all those "non-space shuttle" workers are having homes foreclosed. It a really bad snowball that's extremely difficult to stop once it starts that downhill roll.

    I wince when I imagine the effect a large military spending cutback will have when spread across our nation. Those "government" jobs will be lost, as will the income taxes those paychecks produce, the sales taxes on merchandise bought by those paychecks will be lost, businesses will cutback on employment and benefits--and that huge snaowball will take off.

    If the budget must be reduced, then let's begin by stopping the bleeding of American money that flows out across the borders.
    That was a fancy way of articulating that government jobs and military bases and projects that are not needed are being kept as a form of welfare....The simple facts are:
    1: We have the strongest military in the world
    2: Barring a super alliance of China and Russian and other countries we can now and in the forseeable future defeat any enemy.
    3: We do not keep programs and bases just to "keep jobs"
    4: Get over any analogies about who had who prior to WWII. We were underprepared to go to war. Now we are woefully OVER prepared to go to war.
    5: Most shortcoming we have had in combat since the end of WWII was becausse of tactics, not the superiority of equipmen (OK, I am sure ya can find a few examples but overall our military is more advanced than others)
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  15. #89
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    1: We have the strongest military in the world
    And I'd like to keep it that way.
    2: Barring a super alliance of China and Russian and other countries we can now and in the forseeable future defeat any enemy.
    But we haven't fought a foreign "army" since Korea, and haven't done so well against the non-armies since then.
    3: We do not keep programs and bases just to "keep jobs"
    The majority of those programs and bases have a purpose, and programs that fall behind, fail, and suffer extensive cost overruns are canceled for the large part.
    4: Get over any analogies about who had who prior to WWII. We were underprepared to go to war. Now we are woefully OVER prepared to go to war.
    I'll take over-preppared over under-prepared any day.
    5: Most shortcoming we have had in combat since the end of WWII was becausse of tactics, not the superiority of equipmen (OK, I am sure ya can find a few examples but overall our military is more advanced than others) (OK, I am sure ya can find a few examples but overall our military is more advanced than others)
    Yes, we are--because we continue to advance. And the shortcomings in our WWII military (lest we forget history) were tremendous. It was only our manufacturing ability and time that allowed us to overcome, something we lack now and in the future. The simple technology that tooks only weeks or months to develop years ago now takes years to perfect.

    Last years's IPod is obsolete, as is most technology a few years old. It's a continuous thing, not a wait until it's needed issue. Of course I'm against wasteful programs and things that aren't needed, but the constant slam against "government spending" generally isn't well thought out. Foreign aid and welfare produce little in the way of a viable product, and even less in return for the buck to the American public, whereas jobs do--regardless of who provides them, whether it's the private sector or the public.

    suntzu, we'll just have to agree that we disagree on this one.
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  16. #90
    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    I personally am stuck at the comment about losing income tax due to cutting government jobs... Which are funded by income tax payments. Cutting the whole saves more than getting a portion back doesn't it? Honestly, am I missing something here?
    Our tax base doesn't even come close to covering government expenditures,the government gets funding from other places ,trade sale of equipment ect.But the reality is the government spends way more than it takes in ,hence our massive national debt.
    The easy way is always mined.

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