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More effective military caliber

This is a discussion on More effective military caliber within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Wiggity THe only HP rounds I think the MIL should adopt are pistol HP's. If there is any weak link in current ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array SgtRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggity View Post
    THe only HP rounds I think the MIL should adopt are pistol HP's. If there is any weak link in current ammo, I think that is it. 9mm HP's are exponentially more effective than FMJ's.

    Reason being, pistols do very poorly against armor in general, why not use HP's that are equally as awful against armor yet more effective against tissue?
    FMJ is the "standard" NATO round, which is why we switched from .45 to 9 mm.


  2. #17
    Member Array Wiggity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    Following on pgrass101...

    Hollow points are not outlawed in armed conflict. Take the M118LR round (7.6251mm NATO Hollow Point Boat Tail, 175 grain). It is a sniper round.

    Military FMJ usage is thought to be based upon two things. First, it tends to create wounds rather than kill and treating wounded takes more out of the battle than does a dead soldier. Second, hollow points are often used in non-mil environments because do not penetrate as much. In the military there is less worry about collateral damage so a round going through one person is not something generally considered. Finally, FMJs are cheaper and easier to produce (it's why most of us who carry JHP train with FMJ).
    FMJ's are meant to kill, not wound. What a load of bs. If an enemy is wounded, they can still shoot back at you while a dead enemy cannot. They are chosen because they are cheaper (most of the time) and offer better barrier penetration. Penetration is the #2 factor in a lethal gunshot. #1 being shot placement.
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  3. #18
    Member Array Wiggity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRick View Post
    FMJ is the "standard" NATO round, which is why we switched from .45 to 9 mm.
    Clearly. What does that have to do with my post?
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    If you want to really reach out and touch someone send the best you can.

    Attachment 62356
    Now we're talking!

    And seeing as Al Qaeda isn't a "contracting member" of the Hague agreement--all bets are off!
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    Following on pgrass101...

    Hollow points are not outlawed in armed conflict. Take the M118LR round (7.6251mm NATO Hollow Point Boat Tail, 175 grain). It is a sniper round.

    Military FMJ usage is thought to be based upon two things. First, it tends to create wounds rather than kill and treating wounded takes more out of the battle than does a dead soldier. Second, hollow points are often used in non-mil environments because do not penetrate as much. In the military there is less worry about collateral damage so a round going through one person is not something generally considered. Finally, FMJs are cheaper and easier to produce (it's why most of us who carry JHP train with FMJ).
    Quote Originally Posted by GunGeezer View Post
    I'd go with the wound rather than kill. It takes at least 2 more soldiers to carry a wounded man. This takes 3 or more out of action with one shot. Unless you're forest Gump.
    This is presuming...no...assuming that we are fighting an enemy that will actually pick up and take their wounded with them. This has not been the case in a great many actions that we have been involved in, and it is well know that we will treat a wounded enemy, house and feed them in relative comfort as compared to what we receive if captured.

    Wound a US service-person (PC here), it ties up 2 more in combat, and several more behind the lines, plus further cost in care. We do it because it's the right thing to do. Wish we would do more when they get home.
    Sticks

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  6. #21
    Member Array RichB70's Avatar
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    I wonder what government agencies had in mind when ordering thousands of hollow point rounds??? Wound or kill.


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  7. #22
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    OK, regarding FMJ bullets: I'm pretty sure that it's the 1st Geneva Convention that prohibits expanding type bullets. Hollow point bullets "designed to expand" are illegal for military use under these rules.

    OTM (open tipped match) type hollow points made mention of earlier in this thread are legal because they are not designed to expand. They actually have a small void just inside and they flatten out, fragment or crush...but they don't expand like a soft point/hollow point. The yawing caused by OTM bullets is very nasty but, since the bullet isn't designed to do more damage (it's designed to be more accurate) and since the yawing is just a lucky bonus, they are legal.

    I am not a Geneva Convention specialist and my take on this could be slightly off, but it's pretty close.

  8. #23
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    FMJ verses HP is more about economics than about the Hague. When the military contract calls for bi-zillions of cases of ammunition that's likely going to be fired in full-auto or fast semi-auto, the bean-counting decision makers are, with rare exception, going to opt for more bullets per dollar & not "stopping effectiveness" when they issue the Purchase Order. If you were going to equip an army for war(s), would you want to have the most bullets or fewer of a more effective style of bullet?
    Last edited by ghost tracker; September 6th, 2012 at 05:13 PM.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    FMJ verses HP is more about economics than about the Geneva Convention. When the military contract calls for bi-zillions of cases of ammunition that's likely going to be fired in full-auto or fast semi-auto, the bean-counting decision makers are, with rare exception, going to opt for more bullets per dollar & not "stopping effectiveness" when they issue the Purchase Order. If you were going to equip an army for war(s), would you want to have the most bullets or fewer of a more effective style of bullet?
    Hague! Hague, Hague, Hague! Geneva Convention was concerning POWs.
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  10. #25
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    My mistake Old Vet. Easy friend, I fixed it. But I thought Hague was the guy who was "in control here" during the Reagan assassination attempt . No, that was Alexander Haig.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    My mistake Old Vet. Easy friend, I fixed it. But I thought Hague was the guy who was "in control here" during the Reagan assassination attempt . No, that was Alexander Haig.
    Sorry too, I thought it was Alexander Geneva.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Sorry too, I thought it was Alexander Geneva.
    Nope, Geneva Alexander. World-class stripper from Tulsa. I'll never forget her.
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  13. #28
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    Alexander was from Greece, not Geneva. He was a Great guy.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    OK, regarding FMJ bullets: I'm pretty sure that it's the 1st Geneva Convention that prohibits expanding type bullets. Hollow point bullets "designed to expand" are illegal for military use under these rules.
    They are not illegal.
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  15. #30
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    This might be a stupid question because im a ver and should know this. But does the 5.56 or 7.62 come in hollow points?

    If your talking about using hollow points in issued handguns there is a lot of reasons why we don't as have been stated about penetration. And honestly after 2 deployments I've always seen alot of handguns carried but I've never seen anyone use them against the enemy. That doesn't mean that they don't I've just never seen anyone use it.


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