Houston man shot by police in group home

This is a discussion on Houston man shot by police in group home within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; There is a lot we don't know about this particular incident. There has been more and more coming out in the local media about it ...

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Thread: Houston man shot by police in group home

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    There is a lot we don't know about this particular incident. There has been more and more coming out in the local media about it and about the officer that fired his weapon.
    The first reports of the story said the pen in his hand was silver. I don't know if that has been confirmed or if it has been corrected. A silver pen like a Parker could easily at a distance be mistaken for a knife blade or a an ice pick.
    Conventional ballistic type soft body armor does not protect against ice picks or knives like a correctional "stab resistant" vest does. So a guy with a pointy thing is a very real threat to an officer wearing a standard issue type vest.
    The call as dispatched made no mention of weapons, and did not identify the location as a group home of any kind , just a as a disturbance at a residence.
    We don't know if the responding officers even work that beat regularly so we don't know if they were familiar with the location and its residents.
    We don't know if the officers arrived at the same time or if the first officer got himself in a jam and the second officer walked in the door to find the first officer cornered by a guy in a wheel chair with a shiny pointy thing.
    We do know that the shooter has previously shot and killed someone that was stabbing someone and was commended for saving that victim's life.
    A spokesman for the union was on KHOU last night and said in response to a community activist who said they should have used a Taser that except under "ideal circumstances" Tasers are not used against subjects armed with what is believed to be a deadly weapon.

    To ensure "full transparency" the chief has asked the FBI to come in and investigate the incident.
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  3. #17
    Member Array Glhadiator's Avatar
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    I don't know the details and I don't normally like to make a call in a case like this. However I feel this was a bad shoot. LE cannot just willy nilly shoot people because it's better than incuring some sort of risk. I have a great respect for LEOs because their job requires they take a certain amount of risk. They must put themselves in harms way to do their job. No different than a soldier, sailor or even a football player!

    I don't judge LE in this case. I judge the officer who took the shot. IMHO it was a bad shot.

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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Questions for those who believe this is a bad shoot.
    Does the "21 foot rule" not apply to police officers?
    If it does, in my mind the only question is did the shooter reasonably believe that the pen was a deadly weapon when he drew and fired.
    I don't know the floor plan of the house but I don't know how the deceased could have an officer "cornered" from more than twenty one feet away.

    Granted the deceased was in a wheel chair so we could modify that twenty one feet. How close should the officers let him get with what they believe to be a deadly weapon? If he was within five feet would it have been an OK shoot? Or does the fact he was in a wheel chair mean he is incapable of being a deadly threat?
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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayTee View Post
    Umm...the guy in the wheelchair was a DOUBLE AMPUTEE! Now, I am in no way a cop hater, but really? A double amputee??

    I can't really say for sure what I would have done, but I can damn sure tell you what I wouldn't have done, and thats shoot a wheelchair-ridden double amputee in the head!
    You may be assuming too much because of the guy's condition.




    Just saying...
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    My question is pretty straight forward. Obviously with the advantage of hindsight, with the facts given in the article, is there anything that folks think could have been done to avoid the death of the guy
    We have a guy that has one arm and one leg, He corned one of the officers. I think if I were his partner I would have grabbed the wheel chair pulled it back and tipped him out of his chair. Then cuff him. After reading the article I personally believe that this particular officer was in the wrong. My opinion is based on what we have at the current time.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Questions for those who believe this is a bad shoot.
    Does the "21 foot rule" not apply to police officers?
    If it does, in my mind the only question is did the shooter reasonably believe that the pen was a deadly weapon when he drew and fired.
    I don't know the floor plan of the house but I don't know how the deceased could have an officer "cornered" from more than twenty one feet away.

    Granted the deceased was in a wheel chair so we could modify that twenty one feet. How close should the officers let him get with what they believe to be a deadly weapon? If he was within five feet would it have been an OK shoot? Or does the fact he was in a wheel chair mean he is incapable of being a deadly threat?
    My wife and I tried this using a office chair. I had a pen in one hand and the other in my pocket. I used one leg. My wife is all about 115 lbs soaking wet (trained on H2H though), She said no way would she have that threatened let alone getting herself in the position in the first place. Of course it is our house and we don't know the lay out of the other house.

    I have been in wheel chairs before an extended period so I tried to emulate it the best I could. I tried as hard as I could to get to her moving with one leg and it just does not seem like I could have been a threat. The man had one arm, a move to the opposite side would reduce the threat and the officer that shot him IMO should have had enough time to close on him in a normal sized room.

    The only thing I can possibly see is that the other officer perceived the guy had a gun. If he thought it was a knife.......I just don't think it was a good shoot.

    Not a scientific study mind you.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    What would we being talking about if instead of an officer involved shooting it was you or me that took the shot? Say we encounter this same disabled person with the same pen or stabbing type weapon who says that he is going to kill us or even just rob us. Would we say using deadly force to end the situation would be permissible? Would the same officials who might be backing this officers decision back us?

    Michael
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  9. #23
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Questions for those who believe this is a bad shoot.
    Does the "21 foot rule" not apply to police officers?
    If it does, in my mind the only question is did the shooter reasonably believe that the pen was a deadly weapon when he drew and fired.
    I don't know the floor plan of the house but I don't know how the deceased could have an officer "cornered" from more than twenty one feet away.

    Granted the deceased was in a wheel chair so we could modify that twenty one feet. How close should the officers let him get with what they believe to be a deadly weapon? If he was within five feet would it have been an OK shoot? Or does the fact he was in a wheel chair mean he is incapable of being a deadly threat?
    Something that should be added to your statement. Its not a 21 foot rule. Its a drill, First and foremost. The guy in the wheel chair had one arm. He was waving a pen, and moving a wheel chair at the same time??? Even with an electric chair, I do not see it happening. For me this is not passing the smell test....

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    The rule is based on the drill.
    Interesting read courtesy of the FBI from 2006:
    http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/pu...s/mar06leb.pdf
    The part about edged weapons starts on page 14.
    While mobility impared could change the distance of the threat zone, it does not change everything.
    In one study, for
    example, 45 percent of edged-weapon
    attacks resulted in death
    from a single stab or slash.16
    and
    While ballistic body armor
    provides a degree of protection
    against slash attacks, most
    modern pocketknives have the
    ability to puncture the material
    unless the weapon strikes a
    trauma plate. Furthermore,
    vests do not protect vulnerable
    targets, such as the carotid and
    brachial arteries, that can lead
    to unconsciousness or death if
    severed. The subclavian and
    femoral regions also are exposed
    and can be vulnerable to
    an edged weapon with a blade
    length less than 3 inches.
    We still don't know the lighting, floor plan, or distance from the shooter to the deceased. If we accept what the FBI puts out in their newsletter as valid I think it is a bit of a reach to call it a bad shoot. I am not saying it is a good shoot, but I can see several ways it could be. I don't think we have enough information to make an informed decision either way.

    ETA: Back in 1989 I spent a fair bit of November and December in an out of wheel chairs. If you are on a hard floor you can actually move around fairly easily by "walking" the chair around with one foot.
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I didn't think about electric wheel chair. But wouldn't that make it less threatening? He would have to be operating it with the threatening hand. He couldn't do both at the same time as far as I know.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I didn't think about electric wheel chair. But wouldn't that make it less threatening? He would have to be operating it with the threatening hand. He couldn't do both at the same time as far as I know.
    They also have them with mouth/chin controls for quadraplegics.
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  13. #27
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I didn't think about electric wheel chair. But wouldn't that make it less threatening? He would have to be operating it with the threatening hand. He couldn't do both at the same time as far as I know.
    That is my point, how the heck did he corner one officer so bad that the other feared for his life and shot the man.

    @mcp1810 Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It

    Its a drill, not a rule. Most agencies use it to show how fast things can go wrong. Some have even extended it out to 35-40 feet. As for you one foot theory, I have to say moving a wheel chair with one foot and waving a ink pen would not cause me to shoot. I would have smacked him, but that would have been it. Like I said before, with the info we have right now, I believe this is a bad shoot....

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    They also have them with mouth/chin controls for quadraplegics.
    I doubt that is the case here but would be interesting.

    I am surprised nobody said "they should have shot out the tires" yet
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    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I doubt that is the case here but would be interesting.

    I am surprised nobody said "they should have shot out the tires" yet
    How could we have missed that. They could have preformed a pit maneuver on him or deployed spike strips.

    Michael

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    That is my point, how the heck did he corner one officer so bad that the other feared for his life and shot the man.

    @mcp1810 Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It

    Its a drill, not a rule. Most agencies use it to show how fast things can go wrong. Some have even extended it out to 35-40 feet. As for you one foot theory, I have to say moving a wheel chair with one foot and waving a ink pen would not cause me to shoot. I would have smacked him, but that would have been it. Like I said before, with the info we have right now, I believe this is a bad shoot....
    Ok you quote Wikipedia I will quote the FBI. Which would you rather go to court with?
    TRAINING ISSUES
    The 21-foot rule, a dogma
    of law enforcement training, has
    held that at a distance closer
    than 21 feet, a suspect with an
    edged weapon in hand could
    stab an officer before that officer
    could fire two shots.
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