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Houston man shot by police in group home

6K views 86 replies 35 participants last post by  theskunk 
#1 ·
Can we try this again with intelligent discussion so the thread does not get closed again. I seldom agree with mods when they close a thread but last time I agreed.

For those that think the LEO was correct or "waiting for more information" can we get something better than "do stupid things, win stupid prizes"? I respect LEO's and would like to think they do not like handing out stupid prizes to mentally ill people regardless of the situation.

For those that are LEO haters let us try something better than....well, what ever it is that gets these threads closed.

My question is pretty straight forward. Obviously with the advantage of hindsight, with the facts given in the article, is there anything that folks think could have been done to avoid the death of the guy. LEO's, I particularly am interested in your opinions. The man was threatening one officer but the officer that shot him was apparently not. I have a hard time seeing a circumstance where he had to be shot but I do have an open mind and am curious to the thought process going through their heads.

We have to remember that the LEO's were called to a group home for mentally disturbed folks.


Houston police chief asks for FBI's help in shooting of disabled man - CNN.com
 
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#2 ·
Well, my first reaction is "Wow!! A head shot for trying to stab with a pen" But then, perhaps the shooting officer was at an angle that he could not see what was actually in the wheel-chair-bound man's hand. He MAY have just seen the hand motions towards his partner (who was backed into a corner by the mentaly ill man) that made it look like he was going to stab his partner.

I also find it interesting that the shooting officer was involved 3 years ago as a younger LEO in shooting and killing a man who had actually stabbed a couple of people---possibly that experience colored his judgment in this situation--mentally unstable man acting in a similar manner (similar hand montions??), while attacking his parter??
 
#3 ·
We have a group home on our street and the LEO;s are there like every week. They seem to have to come for the same guy. He has serious mental issues and one of the LEO's said they take their time him because they know his history. They usually have 3 cars or more on a call and an ambulance. Wondering if the it is the same situation here.
 
#4 ·
He made an aggressive move with something in his hand, and failed to comply with the officers' lawful commands... I am not glad the guy is dead, but I think the officer made the right call from what I have read.

I'm not sure how they could have handled it differently, unless they tazed the guy earlier on, but then they would have been accused of police brutality for tazing a disabled man in a wheelchair...
 
#5 ·
Umm...the guy in the wheelchair was a DOUBLE AMPUTEE! Now, I am in no way a cop hater, but really? A double amputee??

I can't really say for sure what I would have done, but I can damn sure tell you what I wouldn't have done, and thats shoot a wheelchair-ridden double amputee in the head!
 
#19 ·
You may be assuming too much because of the guy's condition.




Just saying...
 
#6 ·
I'm having a hard time with this story. I do think most LEO's will react to protect their partner or themselves. They don't often have all the info we have looking back after the fact. It is a hard visual that a man in a wheelchair was shot, but I wasn't there. My biggest issue is the group home. They called the police -justified? - maybe. Because he was causing a disturbance? That's got me curious. I've seen a lot of staff overreact and involve LEO's when they really didn't need to. I've seen a lot of people get set off by the way their caretaker was handling or speaking to them.
"On Saturday officers went to a group home for the mentally ill where Brian Claunch lived. A reported schizophrenic, Claunch was acting aggressively because his caretaker refused to give him a cigarette and a
soda, according to police and the facility owner."

I'm curious too that the group home staff didn't say to the police "he's just got a pen" I guess maybe they did? But I'm guessing not as it's been reported the police didn't know what he had in his hand.

It makes me very sad that this ended the way it did but I hold the group home more responsible overall. It seems they could have communicated with police better and prevented this kind of outcome.
 
#9 ·
I have a daughter that is an RN is a psych ward of a hospital---sometimes they have had to call the local PD to tazer an overly aggressive patient---the patient has been too much for the in-hospital security team to handle.
 
#7 ·
I'm most sorry for the officers. I have seen an 80lb female mental patient take out 5 grown men while trying to subdue her. Ive seen a guy in a wheel chair send two officers to the hospital while trying to give him the meds that he requested! With the mentally ill you never know what they will do! I work In a very large jail, and on my wall I have a collection of pics of things that Inmates have done to guards. This includes a pic of a woman with a pen sticking out of the side of her head! I keep these pics to remind my guys why we don't get careless around inmates.
 
#8 ·
As he advanced toward the officers, Claunch was "refusing to show his hands," the representative said.

From the shooting officer's perspective, the item in the patient's hand could have been a disposable first-aid scalpel or a syringe filled with God-only-knows what.
 
#10 ·
My opinion... based on my own training and experience.

I dont know what really happened in that group home. Based on the news report... I'd have a problem with the actions of the two Officers. There are established prociedure, and precaution for dealing with emotionally disturbed people. I was involved with a very newsworthy situation where an EDP was shot to death. Her death resulted in quite a few changes in prociedure. I suspect these Officers mis-handled this situation. I cant understand how one officer got himself trapped off by an amputee in a wheelchair. I dont understand why an officer would shoot someone because he cant see what is in his hands. I dont get why a police officer would even bring deadly force into the situation. I wonder if their department has the training or equipment to deal with EDP's on a regular basis. A city the size of Huston I would hope so.

What would I have done?... Probably kicked the wheelchair over.
 
#13 ·
Good questions, and good points.

But for kicking over the wheelchair, that would put your leg within striking range of whatever he's carrying. This doesn't explain how the officer got trapped in the first place, but it explains the difficulty in getting out of it.
 
#14 ·
Bad shoot. Guy in a wheelchair armed with a ..... pen.

I mean, surely there was a less than lethal weapon to use. IMO, sounds like the perfect time to use a less than lethal.

Imagine how it'd go if one of us who CC or OC shot in the same situation. Shouldn't be any different for the LEO here.

Having a badge doesn't make it any more or less screwed up.

-- I don't always post from my mobile but when I do, I prefer Tapatalk.
 
#16 ·
There is a lot we don't know about this particular incident. There has been more and more coming out in the local media about it and about the officer that fired his weapon.
The first reports of the story said the pen in his hand was silver. I don't know if that has been confirmed or if it has been corrected. A silver pen like a Parker could easily at a distance be mistaken for a knife blade or a an ice pick.
Conventional ballistic type soft body armor does not protect against ice picks or knives like a correctional "stab resistant" vest does. So a guy with a pointy thing is a very real threat to an officer wearing a standard issue type vest.
The call as dispatched made no mention of weapons, and did not identify the location as a group home of any kind , just a as a disturbance at a residence.
We don't know if the responding officers even work that beat regularly so we don't know if they were familiar with the location and its residents.
We don't know if the officers arrived at the same time or if the first officer got himself in a jam and the second officer walked in the door to find the first officer cornered by a guy in a wheel chair with a shiny pointy thing.
We do know that the shooter has previously shot and killed someone that was stabbing someone and was commended for saving that victim's life.
A spokesman for the union was on KHOU last night and said in response to a community activist who said they should have used a Taser that except under "ideal circumstances" Tasers are not used against subjects armed with what is believed to be a deadly weapon.

To ensure "full transparency" the chief has asked the FBI to come in and investigate the incident.
 
#17 ·
I don't know the details and I don't normally like to make a call in a case like this. However I feel this was a bad shoot. LE cannot just willy nilly shoot people because it's better than incuring some sort of risk. I have a great respect for LEOs because their job requires they take a certain amount of risk. They must put themselves in harms way to do their job. No different than a soldier, sailor or even a football player!

I don't judge LE in this case. I judge the officer who took the shot. IMHO it was a bad shot.
 
#38 ·
This is one of those cases where no matter what they did some one is going to be upset. But how much risk should he have to take? A couple of stabs with a pen? Possibly losing an eye? A few stitches from being rammed with a wheel chair? The truth is it was his duty to respond! He has the same right to self defense as we do. And in a split second decision he chose to defend his partner! I would hope any partner of mine would do the same. DR
 
#18 ·
Questions for those who believe this is a bad shoot.
Does the "21 foot rule" not apply to police officers?
If it does, in my mind the only question is did the shooter reasonably believe that the pen was a deadly weapon when he drew and fired.
I don't know the floor plan of the house but I don't know how the deceased could have an officer "cornered" from more than twenty one feet away.

Granted the deceased was in a wheel chair so we could modify that twenty one feet. How close should the officers let him get with what they believe to be a deadly weapon? If he was within five feet would it have been an OK shoot? Or does the fact he was in a wheel chair mean he is incapable of being a deadly threat?
 
#21 ·
My wife and I tried this using a office chair. I had a pen in one hand and the other in my pocket. I used one leg. My wife is all about 115 lbs soaking wet (trained on H2H though), She said no way would she have that threatened let alone getting herself in the position in the first place. Of course it is our house and we don't know the lay out of the other house.

I have been in wheel chairs before an extended period so I tried to emulate it the best I could. I tried as hard as I could to get to her moving with one leg and it just does not seem like I could have been a threat. The man had one arm, a move to the opposite side would reduce the threat and the officer that shot him IMO should have had enough time to close on him in a normal sized room.

The only thing I can possibly see is that the other officer perceived the guy had a gun. If he thought it was a knife.......I just don't think it was a good shoot.

Not a scientific study mind you.
 
#20 ·
My question is pretty straight forward. Obviously with the advantage of hindsight, with the facts given in the article, is there anything that folks think could have been done to avoid the death of the guy
We have a guy that has one arm and one leg, He corned one of the officers. I think if I were his partner I would have grabbed the wheel chair pulled it back and tipped him out of his chair. Then cuff him. After reading the article I personally believe that this particular officer was in the wrong. My opinion is based on what we have at the current time.
 
#22 ·
What would we being talking about if instead of an officer involved shooting it was you or me that took the shot? Say we encounter this same disabled person with the same pen or stabbing type weapon who says that he is going to kill us or even just rob us. Would we say using deadly force to end the situation would be permissible? Would the same officials who might be backing this officers decision back us?

Michael
 
#33 ·
To answer your question...not a chance in hell! If you or I shot a man in the head like the officer did, a man with ONE ARM and ONE LEG in a WHEELCHAIR because we felt "threatened", I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we'd be sitting behind bars facing murder charges with the media and the general public absolutely crucifying us. Anyone that believes different is not living in the real world.

Further, think about the thousands upon thousands of nurses and caretakers out there that deal with the mentally ill on a daily basis. Mentally ill people that aren't in wheelchairs and have both arms and legs. Now think about how many times those nurses and caretakers are "threatened", attacked, or "cornered" on a continual basis. How do they deal with that situation? Do they pull out a gun and shoot the patients in the head?? NO THEY DO NOT.

I'm sorry, I just cannot see how this shoot was in any way shape or form justified.
 
#24 ·
The rule is based on the drill.
Interesting read courtesy of the FBI from 2006:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2006-pdfs/mar06leb.pdf
The part about edged weapons starts on page 14.
While mobility impared could change the distance of the threat zone, it does not change everything.
In one study, for
example, 45 percent of edged-weapon
attacks resulted in death
from a single stab or slash.16
and
While ballistic body armor
provides a degree of protection
against slash attacks, most
modern pocketknives have the
ability to puncture the material
unless the weapon strikes a
trauma plate. Furthermore,
vests do not protect vulnerable
targets, such as the carotid and
brachial arteries, that can lead
to unconsciousness or death if
severed. The subclavian and
femoral regions also are exposed
and can be vulnerable to
an edged weapon with a blade
length less than 3 inches.
We still don't know the lighting, floor plan, or distance from the shooter to the deceased. If we accept what the FBI puts out in their newsletter as valid I think it is a bit of a reach to call it a bad shoot. I am not saying it is a good shoot, but I can see several ways it could be. I don't think we have enough information to make an informed decision either way.

ETA: Back in 1989 I spent a fair bit of November and December in an out of wheel chairs. If you are on a hard floor you can actually move around fairly easily by "walking" the chair around with one foot.
 
#25 ·
I didn't think about electric wheel chair. But wouldn't that make it less threatening? He would have to be operating it with the threatening hand. He couldn't do both at the same time as far as I know.
 
#32 ·
Over the weekend, police said that the wheelchair-bound man was acting aggressively and had tried to stab an officer with a pen.
He lost an arm and a leg
Man in a wheel they could not get out.
The incident was the second shooting involving Marin.

In October 2009, he shot and killed a knife-wielding man who stabbed his girlfriend and a neighbor, according to published reports at the time. Marin joined the Houston Police Department in 2007.

Need we say anything?
 
#44 ·
In October 2009, he shot and killed a knife-wielding man who stabbed his girlfriend and a neighbor, according to published reports at the time. Marin joined the Houston Police Department in 2007.

Need we say anything?
Actually, yes. One incident has nothing to do with the other. Additionally, why would he not shoot a knife-wielding man who has stabbed multiple people? This just shows that he justifiably recognizes the lethality of a knife and reacts accordingly.
 
#35 ·
I do have to wonder why the officer didn't pull the wheel chair away from the other officer instead of shooting the man. We don't know the layout of the area but if he could get the chair in the area I would think it could have been pulled out.
 
#37 ·
I wasn't there,
Therefore I'm keeping my cake-hole shut.

Video would help, but then again,
 
#39 ·
More on the news tonight.
Retired FBI agent defends officer in shooting of double amputee | khou.com Houston
I can't find a link to the video yet but the shelter manager said the manager on duty used a cordless phone to call 9-1-1 and he and the calltaker could not hear each other over the static. He said he was unable to make the calltaker aware that the deceased had mental health issues. He also commented on how quick and agile he was in the chair. Hopefully they will post the video soon so everyone can see it.
 
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