Military suicide policy would try to remove personal firearms

This is a discussion on Military suicide policy would try to remove personal firearms within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by goldshellback ... I actually had a nub on a submarine pull one on me and our Chief A-Ganger........ after I removed that ...

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Thread: Military suicide policy would try to remove personal firearms

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    ... I actually had a nub on a submarine pull one on me and our Chief A-Ganger........ after I removed that card from his possession I went up one side and down his other side. I put him in tears (and I did it to save his butt from the Chief going absolutly ape-crazy on him). That nonsense had NO PLACE in the fleet and NO PLACE in ANY kind of combat situation.
    ...
    Oh, how I miss those days. When I went into the private sector, I was known to occasionally pull one of those good ol' fashioned, spittle flying, purple-faced, finger-in-the-chest conversations with someone who needed a little gentle guidance. Human resources would hold meetings, just for me.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 View Post
    Better take away any type of ropes that they could hang themselves from. OH, and how about that pesky thing called electricity? Wouldn't want them to jump in a bathtub with a toaster and hairdryer plugged in! Don't allow them to go to the grocery store either, they could buy arsenic or harsh chemicals and poison themselves! Wait, water is bad too, afterall they could drown themselves in their bathtub, how about taking away their licenses to drive a motor vehicle so they can't drive off a cliff or bridge,...
    The fact is most suicide by men are by the use of a firearm. A firearm that is readily accessible can be used on an impulse to kill oneself. Late at night, drunk and depressed, if you do not have a gun, you might not wander the streets looking for all of the above methods you listed.
    I know from personal experience (a friend and soldier) who killed himself with a gun. He had oppurtunitues to take his life with other methods. After the shrinks said he was "OK" and he was able to get his firearms back he blew his head off.
    So yeah, by taking away firearms and if this person had continued care he might still be alive today.

    Anyway, folks are confusing the issue. The issue is not if it is effective in limiting suicides. The issue is at what point can someone determine that a right can be taken away from an individual. What is the threshold? Who and how many mental health care professionals can make that determination? If they determine a person is suicidal do they need to get a court order to take away his possesions?
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    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    The fact is most suicide by men are by the use of a firearm. A firearm that is readily accessible can be used on an impulse to kill oneself. Late at night, drunk and depressed, if you do not have a gun, you might not wander the streets looking for all of the above methods you listed.
    I know from personal experience (a friend and soldier) who killed himself with a gun. He had oppurtunitues to take his life with other methods. After the shrinks said he was "OK" and he was able to get his firearms back he blew his head off.
    So yeah, by taking away firearms and if this person had continued care he might still be alive today.

    Anyway, folks are confusing the issue. The issue is not if it is effective in limiting suicides. The issue is at what point can someone determine that a right can be taken away from an individual. What is the threshold? Who and how many mental health care professionals can make that determination? If they determine a person is suicidal do they need to get a court order to take away his possesions?
    He might not have killed himself THAT particular night, but if he kept drinking and getting depressed and thinking about killing himself, he could have used a different method, obviously we will never know. ...I'm sorry about your loss. It is the person who commits the action, not the tool. It seems it will just delay suicide until the individual thinks about using an alternative method (Alternative meaning not a firearm.) and finally go through with it. A person can jump off of a bridge or a roof of a building(or jump into traffic, or drive off a cliff,..or,...) with just as much impulse as they can pull a trigger.


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ...

    Anyway, folks are confusing the issue. The issue is not if it is effective in limiting suicides. The issue is at what point can someone determine that a right can be taken away from an individual. What is the threshold? Who and how many mental health care professionals can make that determination? If they determine a person is suicidal do they need to get a court order to take away his possesions?
    I believe that the threshold needs to be something that constitutes a felony. There is no need to muddy the water with a health care professional that decides who is sane and who is not. Actions speak louder than ink blots. The whole idea of allowing someone serve active-duty while determined incompetent to own a firearm is asinine.
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  6. #20
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    One reason I retired was in the influx of the "Me" generation. I was old school, never bought into the "self-esteem" and "Praise in public; Scold in private" routine. When I addressed an individual for reason, everyone got the message. Recent work experience with some military folks has shown me that "me" generation has yet to grow up.

    So it doesn't surprise me that so many are not able to handle the stress of combat, or even military duty for some; they were not prepared for it from the get-go. Sometime one needs to do some weeding to get the grass to grow stronger.
    goldshellback likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 View Post
    He might not have killed himself THAT particular night, but if he kept drinking and getting depressed and thinking about killing himself, he could have used a different method, obviously we will never know. ...I'm sorry about your loss. It is the person who commits the action, not the tool. It seems it will just delay suicide until the individual thinks about using an alternative method (Alternative meaning not a firearm.) and finally go through with it. A person can jump off of a bridge or a roof of a building(or jump into traffic, or drive off a cliff,..or,...) with just as much impulse as they can pull a trigger.
    Please don't argue this one incident. Fact is I know the circumstances and you do not. He had ample oppurtunity to find other ways of killing himself for several weeks but chose to wait until he got his firearms back.. So everything you just posted is factually incorrect for this incident. The "mental health professionals" were wrong in saying he was OK when everyone including the commander and SGM knew he was not. This man for whatever reasons needed more care.
    Again, this is not the issue, the issue is who can take rights away. In this case the professionals were wrong and he needed more care. At what point do we hand over peoples rights to an in exact profession.
    goldshellback likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  8. #22
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    Goldshellback, not to start a fight, but I can assure you that the Marine Corps did not have stress cards in the mid-1990s. Since that was my time frame I knew people well that went through boot camp from the early 90s until the end of the 90s, and it simply didn't happen. It was something that Marines loved to talk about, the rumor was flowing full speed ahead. But when you talk to people that spent time at either recruit depot you found it never actually happened. I don't have first hand knowledge but I've been told the same by people from the Army.

    The navy did have blue cards that told Sailors what to do when they were faced with stress. RDCs said that some people raised the cards as a way for asking for a timeout when they were feeling stressed. Since that was not the reason the cards existed they were phased out shortly afterward.
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  9. #23
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    I went through Air Force BMT a few years ago... didn't even realize it was supposed to be stressful.

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    What, waiting in line for chow didn't strees you out? What are you, some kind of superman?
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    What, waiting in line for chow didn't strees you out? What are you, some kind of superman?
    Not sure how I did it...

    But to be serious, the way I understand that we deal with at-risk individuals seems to be pretty effective. My experience is pretty limited, but I think that a lot of the cases of completed suicides have someone in the chain of command who was negligent in the way they dealt with the individual.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinevet1994 View Post
    My own opinion and I expect to take some flak for it but I think the increased suicides may be because of the forced changes to basic training. Drill instructors are no longer allowed to train recruits the way they need to. Stress cards and training breaks are allowing those who aren't mentally tough enough to make it through and this is the result. I could be wrong, but that is the way I see it.
    I have often wondered if a person can't handle being yelled at how are they going to handle being shot at.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimalbrat View Post
    I have often wondered if a person can't handle being yelled at how are they going to handle being shot at.
    IMO apples and oranges. I went through basic when DI's harrassed and yelled at you. The only folks that it rattled were folks that did not figure out it was part of a game or method. They could yell at me all say long and I just smiled inside and said "yes, drill sergeant". IMO if anyone takes someone yelling at them seriously they have a screw loose.
    I yelled at one soldier (in anger, not for safety) in 23 years. And it was true anger. I think he peed his pants. Yelling to a bunch of MI soldiers (I was MI at the time) did nothing to really motivate them to change. Just my experience. YMMV
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  14. #28
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    Over my dead body. I would flat out tell my commander that is an unlawful order and WILL NOT HAPPEN.

  15. #29
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    HA the only soldiers we will have left will be the anti gun ones. The rest will retire/leave when their hitch is up
    English is my second language, I have been told my use of it is harsh, apologies if this is the matter.

    You know what stops a bad guy with a gun? A good guy with a gun

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    One reason I retired was in the influx of the "Me" generation. I was old school, never bought into the "self-esteem" and "Praise in public; Scold in private" routine. When I addressed an individual for reason, everyone got the message. Recent work experience with some military folks has shown me that "me" generation has yet to grow up.

    So it doesn't surprise me that so many are not able to handle the stress of combat, or even military duty for some; they were not prepared for it from the get-go. Sometime one needs to do some weeding to get the grass to grow stronger.
    On much of this we would agree. I have also not seen much posted here that shows an understanding of the policy on a service member you know to be at risk or have reason to believe could be. There is a protocol for dealing with and it is in the form of regulations. However a blind eye is often turned by those around them.
    If a Commander wants to keep a service member from his personal weapon he can. There is nothing that says they have to allow you to leave post.
    A Commander can put a service member in a medical hold anytime they want takes about a minute to start the process. That member will remain in hold until they have been evaluated. Dealt with it a few times.

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