Courthouse and jail expansion turned down

This is a discussion on Courthouse and jail expansion turned down within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Manifest Destiny? That's not what our nation was founded on. That's just what gave us our real estate....

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29
Like Tree14Likes

Thread: Courthouse and jail expansion turned down

  1. #16
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Manifest Destiny?
    That's not what our nation was founded on. That's just what gave us our real estate.
    Rock and Glock likes this.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,174
    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    That's not what our nation was founded on. That's just what gave us our real estate.
    So, what is anything founded on, if not real estate?
    atctimmy likes this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  4. #18
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    So, what is anything founded on, if not real estate?
    How about "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

  5. #19
    VIP Member
    Array atctimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NSA Headquarters
    Posts
    6,372
    does anyone have a real working solution?
    More dead offenders.
    msgt/ret likes this.

  6. #20
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,174
    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    How about "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Reckon the three-fifths crowd saw it that way?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    329
    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    End prohibition of controlled substances and start going after people who are breaking real laws meant to protect peoples constitutional rights.

    While my proposed solution is highly unlikely due to the irrational fears that caused people to unconstitutionally start the war on drugs in the first place, I think it's the right solution. Anyone who thinks that drugs should still be illegal uses the same thought process as the people who think owning guns should be illegal.
    That would solve the majority of the problem.
    steffen likes this.

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,844
    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    You may need to slow down and explain how Authoritarianism is on a different scale than the simple left-right, liberal-conservative scale that everyone is familiar with. Most people don't realize that the left-right scale that they all know and love has very little to do with freedom.

    Here is a chart:
    Attachment 64241
    As a point of clarification, Right Wing Authoritarianism is not the same things as Right Wing (conservative) Politics. This wikipedia article has a pretty good explaination of RWA.

    From the article:
    Right-wing authoritarians are people who have a high degree of willingness to submit to authorities they perceive as established and legitimate, who adhere to societal conventions and norms, and who are hostile and punitive in their attitudes towards people who don't adhere to them.
    (...)
    Right wing authoritarianism is defined by three characteristics:
    1) Authoritarian submission a high degree of submissiveness to the authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in the society in which one lives
    2)Authoritarian aggression a general aggressiveness directed against deviants, outgroups, and other people that are perceived to be targets according to established authorities
    3)Conventionalism a high degree of adherence to the traditions and social norms that are perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities, and a belief that others in one's society should also be required to adhere to these norms
    In essence, this is what I envision when one says put a stop to "liberal" judges, cries for mandatory sentencing without parole, etc. The opposite of "liberal" judges who are free use legal interpretations and their own judgment to gauge an appropriate response and instead require a strict adherence to a set of arbitrary rules. There are several threads in this forum that show several members here engage in RWA thinking, for example, the current thread about the illegal border crossing and the tire shooting from the helicopter.
    Hopyard and Sig 210 like this.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southwestern OK
    Posts
    2,017
    Actually, I think the real danger is that your sheriff will start to take prisoners from other counties
    on contract to pay for the over- capacity. Then, he'll go to the voters wanting more
    COs, and at that point your taxes will go up to pay for it.
    This very thing happened here in Oklahoma. A few counties got stuck when the state did not fill their new larger jails with inmates. Now taxes have to be raised to pay off the jail bonds.

    Prisons are the largest business in the US. The US has more people in prison than Russian and China combined.

  10. #24
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 11,650'
    Posts
    12,264
    The US has more people in prison than Russian and China combined.
    ONLY if they report honestly, which is doubtful. I would label that comment ludicrous, actually. Don't forget the Russian Gulag, and I am certain the Chinese have a Gulag also. I'll go see what I can find.

    There are also many businesses in the US which are much larger than Prisons. Just look at the Fortune 500 or 1000 of Russell 2000.

  11. #25
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    ONLY if they report honestly, which is doubtful. I would label that comment ludicrous, actually. Don't forget the Russian Gulag, and I am certain the Chinese have a Gulag also. I'll go see what I can find.

    There are also many businesses in the US which are much larger than Prisons. Just look at the Fortune 500 or 1000 of Russell 2000.
    In the aggregate? Total size /value of prisons across all states and the Federal Govt?
    Its hard to say for sure, but I doubt there is any corporation that comes close.

    What's the book value of Apple? How many people does it employ domestically?
    How many COs do we employ across all city, county, state, and Federal entities?
    What's the book value for the prison land and structures alone?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #26
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 11,650'
    Posts
    12,264
    Comparable statistics are hard to find, but...........

    USA for 2010 (From DOJ):

    In addition, the total U.S. prison population fell to 1.6 million at yearend 2010, a decline of 0.6 percent during the year, the first decline in the total prison population in nearly four decades. This decline was due to a decrease of 10,881 in the number of state prisoners, which fell to just under 1.4 million persons and was the largest yearly decrease since 1977. The federal prison population grew by 0.8 percent (1,653 prisoners) to reach 209,771, the smallest percentage increase since 1980.
    The ICPS estimated 2,266,000 or so, all in.

    China (ICPS):

    1,640,000 at April 2012 (Ministry of Justice - sentenced prisoners in Ministry of Justice prisons only, excluding pre-trial detainees and those held in administrative detention.) The Deputy Procurator-General of the Supreme People's Procuratorate reported in 2009 that, in addition to the sentenced prisoners, more than 650,000 were held in detention centres In China. If this is still correct in April 2012 the total prison population in China is more than 2,300,000.
    These figures may exclude state, city or provencial detainees, and they do exclude pre-trial detainees estimated between 100,000 to 260,000

    Russian:

    712,500 at 1.10.2012 (national prison administration)
    This excludes any state of provinces, and is laughable low. Remember the Gulag...............Putin is a liar too, so go figure

  13. #27
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 11,650'
    Posts
    12,264
    Geo Group Inc. is a diversified prison administration company publicly traded on the NYSE. About Us

    The Market Capitalization of GEO (what the stock market says it is worth in total) is $1,660,000,000

    GEO manages 75,00 beds

    So..........in a simplistic fashion (subject to arguments, of course), the stock market says that managing a bed in a prison is "worth" about $22,000. This is obtained by dividing Market Capitalization by the number of beds managed, or $1,660,000,000 /75,000)..........

    So, if we have 1,600,000 prisoners in the USA ("Beds"), take $22,133 X 1,600,000, or a Market Capitalization of $35 billion. So, in simplistic terms, the "business" of managing prison beds in the USA is "worth" 35 billion. Now, let's compare that to some other businesses in the USA:

    Market Capitalizations:

    Remember:

    Prisons $35 Billion (Estimate)

    GE $221 Billion (worldwide)
    YUM Brands (Pizza) $32 Billion (worldwide)
    Pepsico $106 Billion (worldwide)
    Exxon $397 Billion (worldwide)
    Apple $514 Billion (worldwide)
    Lorillard $14 Billion (predominantly USA)
    McDonalds $85 Billion (worldwide)
    Citigroup $105 Billion (predominantly USA)
    Home Depot $91 Billion (predominantly USA)
    Lowes $35 Billion (predominantly USA)

    Sure, my comparison is rough, but prisons don't rank.

    If you look at Public Education K-12: That dwarfs prisons at first glance;
    Universities: Dwarfs prisons

    I could go on, but it is all estimates anyway.

    Having said that, I believe there is a significant incarceration rate problem in the USA, and I shudder, but let's keep the discussion on level footings.

  14. #28
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,602
    Good--- Makes sense.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #29
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    As a point of clarification, Right Wing Authoritarianism is not the same things as Right Wing (conservative) Politics. This wikipedia article has a pretty good explaination of RWA.

    From the article:

    In essence, this is what I envision when one says put a stop to "liberal" judges, cries for mandatory sentencing without parole, etc. The opposite of "liberal" judges who are free use legal interpretations and their own judgment to gauge an appropriate response and instead require a strict adherence to a set of arbitrary rules. There are several threads in this forum that show several members here engage in RWA thinking, for example, the current thread about the illegal border crossing and the tire shooting from the helicopter.
    Fortunately, I understand the difference. Unfortunately, I don't think most people understand the hypocrisy in their "RWA thinking." They are willing to allow the government to ignore the rights of those they deem "enemies of the state" such as terrorists or illegal immigrants, but then they get all angry when the government wants to raise taxes or control firearms.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

why is prison expansion expensive

Click on a term to search for related topics.