Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions? - Page 2

Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions?

This is a discussion on Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Ksgunner I don't think turning our schools into Prisons is the answer to anything. Allowing teachers to carry concealed and train them ...

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Thread: Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions?

  1. #16
    Member Array violinjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksgunner View Post
    I don't think turning our schools into Prisons is the answer to anything. Allowing teachers to carry concealed and train them in self defense would go a long way towards making schools safer. I think an armed guard would probably be the first on shot when the bad guys come in. Finding a teacher willing to carry might be hard to do though.
    You just found one. I've been thinking for a lot of years now (I've taught 16 years, had my CCW for 10) that the only way to prevent one of these massacres is to have first responders on the spot in the form of trained staff that carry. It's something I wrestle with but I teach elementary school in an affluent suburb and yes, we have a buzzer in place, lockdown drills, etc. None of this would have slowed this kid down. The Israeli's have been arming their teachers since the 70's and don't have these situations. How many psychopath's simply wouldn't try if they knew that armed staff were trained and ready to take them out when trouble occurs? Or at least stop a massacre. All very sad, never thought going into the career I'd be dealing with this.

    Jim


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cayman_shen View Post
    Hardening schools is part of the solution perhaps...but all it takes is one sniper outside and one pulled fire alarm inside to send everyone rushing into the line of fire. Not sure what the solution is to that one.
    I'd much rather deal with a sniper, than a BG within the building, killing indiscriminately. We can what/if this thing to death, to avoid taking substantive action, and doing nothing isn't good enough anymore. My concern, and one that I've posted before is, what happens when our sworn enemies (the radical islamists that we're battling around the globe) decide, "Hey, we can do that, and better"? This guy was a mental case, no question. But our soft targets, where our innocents gather, like schools, must be hardened, or we'll have this horrific incident repeated again and again, until we take that action. Lets act NOW, and prevent, or minimize the carnage. We must take every opportunity to send these people to get their virgins, without sacrificing any of ours. Be safe.
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    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violinjim View Post
    You just found one. I've been thinking for a lot of years now (I've taught 16 years, had my CCW for 10) that the only way to prevent one of these massacres is to have first responders on the spot in the form of trained staff that carry. It's something I wrestle with but I teach elementary school in an affluent suburb and yes, we have a buzzer in place, lockdown drills, etc. None of this would have slowed this kid down. The Israeli's have been arming their teachers since the 70's and don't have these situations. How many psychopath's simply wouldn't try if they knew that armed staff were trained and ready to take them out when trouble occurs? Or at least stop a massacre. All very sad, never thought going into the career I'd be dealing with this.

    Jim
    Thanks for what you do Jim. Hopefully we'll get some movement in the right direction now, to prevent another occurrence. I too have personal friends, that share your desire to do the right thing. I don't think it will be problematic at all, to choose, and train volunteer teachers and school administrators. Maybe in some locations, but certainly not in all. Be safe.
    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cayman_shen View Post
    Hardening schools is part of the solution perhaps...but all it takes is one sniper outside and one pulled fire alarm inside to send everyone rushing into the line of fire.
    Not if "hardening" is done properly, which entails the procedures and training just as much as the brick and mortar elements. Only one aspect done in a vacuum won't result in covering the bases, you're right.
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  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    What good does hardening do when someone buzzes the bad guy in? We have tried to hard to take the "people" element out of it and really on things. We need prepared willing individuals carrying in schools.
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  6. #21
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    I heard someone on radio suggest we utilize LE who are on job related disability retirement, and retirees. It was suggested that since these people were already trained, offer those on disability a little more than they are receiving and pay them to secure the school.

    Many officers on disability are not unable to do this type of job, and since they are already getting a check, why not put them back in use, and protect our children.
    Its a win-win. Children are protected, and some disabled and retired officers can make extra money, and still be of service to the community.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #22
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    So we have armed guards at a bank protecting what? Money? Fake crap at that and something that is insured. We have armed guards at so many other locations, like sporting events too but we do nothing to protect our most valuable assets, our children. We offer gun free zones which mean nothing to a criminal or crazy person except that they will have no resistance. It's stupid but then again, it's the government and the liberal way.
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I heard someone on radio suggest we utilize LE who are on job related disability retirement, and retirees. It was suggested that since these people were already trained, offer those on disability a little more than they are receiving and pay them to secure the school.

    Many officers on disability are not unable to do this type of job, and since they are already getting a check, why not put them back in use, and protect our children.
    Its a win-win. Children are protected, and some disabled and retired officers can make extra money, and still be of service to the community.
    I was thinking the same thing, but with retired LEOs. There are thousands of retired law enforcement officers (as well as those on disability) that could contribute to this effort, and for less money than you'd have to pay someone starting out their career. I know lots of retired cops and feds that would take on this job, for a little extra spending money, and to continue contributing to their community.
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    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Here is some Factoids for you:

    1. No US children have been killed in school fires for the 30 years! So should we stop putting in fire sprinklers?

    2. 1998 - 47 students died in school violence; 2007 - 63 students died in school violence

    3. In 2009 there were 600 attacks on schools in Afghanistan!

    4. From 1950 to 2005 we have seen an increase of over 500% in violent assaults! Note the murder rate has decrease and this is due to advances within our medical system.

    Ever since Ma'a Lot, Israel has had armed security in every school. If we look at the Newtown or the event in China (attached) maybe we should require our teachers to be school in self defense?

    My opinion and my opinion only - the advances seen in our medical system will slowly grind to a halt under ObamaCare!

    Link to the China story: Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China - Courant.com
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  10. #25
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    1) During school hours, all perimiter doors should be locked to the outside.
    Buzzers with cameras to allow PARENTS/GUARDIANS and teachers/administrators access into the facility.
    Office staff to allow said individuals access ONLY after confirming they actually have business there; IE there to pickup a sick child early.

    2) When the doors are opened from someone on the inside to leave, they should have a timed sensor to alert officials AND the local police precinct of the status of that particular door.
    EXAMPLE:
    Someone props door open, door alarm goes off after 30 seconds, or whatever is deemed a reasonable alloted time.

    3) ALL classroom doors are to be of steel construction, with lockable (deadbolt type) mechanism activated by the teacher with only a small window perhaps 4 inches x 4 inches wide.

    We protect the criminals in such a manner when they are "incarcerated", why not our children.

    My kids went to a private school K-8, and you had to get buzzed in after being confirmed that you were a parent there on official school business.
    That would be cheaper than a school massacre

    P.S.
    Bloomberg can go to Hades with his mantra.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I am for hardening our schools, allowing our teachers to defend themselves, and armed security in some of our schools. But I see mostly a need to treat our mental patients differently. The last few mass shooters that come to mind were currently being treated for mental issues. The Colorado movie shooter, the VA Tech shooter, and the AZ shooter all come to mind. What can we do to prevent them from buying weapons! We already have back ground checks, But we are not forcing the medical community to report these people. Why put additional restrictions on us without dealing with the root cause of the problem? Lets put an identifiable mark on there ID so that even in a person to person transfer the seller would have a way to know this person is restricted from owning a gun. Its not perfect but its a start, and it goes at thos responsible instead of creating a new law aimed at normal citizens.

  12. #27
    New Member Array Hotspur's Avatar
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    Schools...

    Couple points to think about:

    1) Many schools are examining the procedure of evacuating a school if a bomb threat is called in. That or a fire alarm would put 300-1500 targets in the open for a shooter/shooters to easily attack.

    2) Talk to most veteran teachers and they will be able to give you a pretty good idea of students with "issues." However, most teachers are not allowed to express this due to the politically correct nature of the school systems. Even severe special education students are mainstreamed into the general population. The students that are not designated "severe" are the ones that often have the worst issues (behavior and/or emotional and/or learning difficulties) but for fear of hurting their "self esteem" often they are just put into the regular classrooms. If a kid struggles and the parents whine....the teacher is blamed and the student goes on through the system without specialized help.

    3) Public education has been and currently is under tremendous attack by all sides for many things. Some of it legit, some of it not legit. It's doubtful that many areas at all would consider arming school staff since that same staff is believed to be useless and incompetent in many circles.

    Hotspur
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  13. #28
    Member Array l1a1's Avatar
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    DangerRanger - I completely agree with you that the mental health system needs to change. I believe the shooter in this case had stolen the weapons from his mother. I still believe that most weapons used in crime are not legally acquired.
    It's kind of like how some people have a sudden and insatiable desire to talk about vampires after the Twilight series became popular, except zombies are much less gay and more likely to exist one day

  14. #29
    Member Array 1911srule's Avatar
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    IMHO either; a) allow teachers to CCW legally while at work after mandatory training.
    b)designate certain personnel to carry and put them thru appropriate initial and regular training.
    c)at a minimum have Tazer available to personnel.
    Most definitely review facilities security procedures, building designs, ect. Classrooms should have windows that allow egress. But most importantly change the mindset. At least someone that has had training or possesses the proper mindset will be able to react more quickly. How many times do we read of an incident and ask ourselves "why did'nt they fight for their lives?""why did'nt they run?" History has shown law enforcement cannot respond fast enough to stop an active shooter from taking lives. The actions of the people on scene are crucial.
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    RIP Jeff Cooper

  15. #30
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    Great subject.

    IMO many of the suggestions are good ones. Some not so good. A school must remain a place for learning, and growth. Our children should feel as secure in school as they do at home. Turning a school into a reversed detention facility cant be the answer.

    a School is pretty much a soft target. As is any mall, any theatre, or any entertainment venue. The answer I submit is that operators of such places be held responsible for the basic safety of the public. For a long time now security has been viewed as a joke. A warm body to be seen, someone to blame when things go wrong. Observe and report (to managers). I think it's time to rethink physical security. Schools should have selected, trained, and armed security officers on campus. Mall's and like places should also take security more seriously.

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