Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions? - Page 4

Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions?

This is a discussion on Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I really enjoy reading commentary from Massad Ayoob. We donít hear of mass deaths of children in school fires these days: fire drills have long ...

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  1. #46
    SDG
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    I really enjoy reading commentary from Massad Ayoob.


    We donít hear of mass deaths of children in school fires these days: fire drills have long since been commonplace, led by trained school staff, not to mention sprinkler systems and smoke alarms and strategically placed fire extinguishers that can nip a blaze in the bud while firefighters are en route.
    Exactly. The following training should be mandatory for all teachers.



  2. #47
    Member Array mnmbrewing's Avatar
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    So I am watching 60 minutes last night. Shortend due to the football game running into OT. First story is about the Sandyhook shooting. Loved the comment right out of the gate that most eveything that was reported during the first few hours was wrong. Really makes you wonder about the news media. One of the facts that was wrong was his mother was a teacher at the school and he was buzzed in. Now it seems he broke/shot out a window to gain entry to the school. Any security procedure is only as good as its weakest point. The windows were not secure. I am not saying we need to make the schools into a prison but maybe we need to get someone better then a school administrator to review the buildings from a threat standpoint?? I am sure someone trained in security would have caught that little oversight. Heck I might even have been able to spot that one.

    Now on to what to do if the BG gets in. I am all for arming the teachers. It makes total sense to me. Proper training in how to respond and a biosafe in your desk. Simple solution to a shooter. The staff at the school is there. The first responders are not. I still have not heard how long it took for the first responders to arrive. However the shooter was dead by his own hand before they entered the building. So all the SWAT members from all the LE agencies showed up to deal with the aftermath.

    I am also sitting here thinking about something the big O said last night. That was the fourth time he has had to address the nation for a mass shooting. Not to mention the general incerease in this type of violence. Maybe I am wrong and I am looking back with rose colored glasses but you did not have these types of events 30+ years ago. It seems to me the more civilized we become the more you hear of this. I was taugh to respect firearms. They were not toys. Dad kept the shotgun in his closet and it was off limits. It was taken out to go hunting and target shooting and whenever we asked. It was no mystery. It was no big deal to us that the guns were there. Today many of the people who have firearms hide them from their kids because that is what we are told to do. I just read an opinion article on CNN that one of the things we can do is keep kids away from the guns. Yes we can do that. However, when and how are the kids supposed to learn about firearms? My ex-wifes kids were all taught about guns and what they can do and my current wife's son was taugh about guns when he was younger. I have had him out to the gun range for both bench shooting with rifles and to the trap range to learn to shoot at moving targets. It takes the mystery out of it. Will this prevent the events that happened last week or even what happened at the mall? No it will not. Nor will making it harder for law abiding citizens to purchase firearms. The last two shooters to make the news both stole their guns. The last killed the registered owner of the guns, his own mother. Maybe she should have had them put away in a more secure place. I don't know how they were stored.

    This is a very sad turn of events. Could this have been prevented? I am sure that at some level after what I have seen reported so far yes it might have been preventable. However the latest call for more gun control is not going to prevent furture occurances. Maybe if we stop reporting the names of the shooter? Take away the 15 minutes of fame they get. I just don't know.

    Sorry for the rambling. I will get off my soap box now.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnmbrewing View Post
    So I am watching 60 minutes last night. Shortend due to the football game running into OT. First story is about the Sandyhook shooting. Loved the comment right out of the gate that most eveything that was reported during the first few hours was wrong. Really makes you wonder about the news media.
    Still haven't seen the formal police report, yet. 60mins is just another "media" show, in that regard. I don't think we still have the full story about what basically was and wasn't true ... about the access, methods, weaponry that was actually used/fired, etc.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #49
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    There needs to be some kind of response from within the school, and it needs to be from multiple sources. Having a single guard sitting by the door is useless. Teachers should be trained / carry some kind of spray, plus have some self defense training. There also needs to be some armed response from within the school, I have no issue knowing that the teachers (or a subset of teachers) are carrying.

    I have no idea how you could actually go about securing the building forcing a possible intruder in through a single location. There are doors all over the buildings, students go outside for gym, recess, get to classrooms. I don't see how you can keep all doors locked at all times.
    Glock Armorer

  5. #50
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    I passed along some info on school security to my principal (I teach). He's forwading it to the chief of police and the school resource officer (who is armed in our building, thank goodness). Hopefully we'll begin doing some practical drills and training at my school soon.

  6. #51
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    Having armed faculty/teachers/janitors, et al will go a long way to helping stop large numbers of casulties and deaths. It does work. Here is part of an email I got from Mas Ayoob the other day.
    After the Maíalot massacre in 1974, Israel instituted a policy in which volunteer school personnel, parents, and grandparents received special training from the civil guard, and were seeded throughout the schools armed with discreetly concealed 9mm semiautomatic pistols. Since that time, there has been no successful mass murder at an Israeli school, and every attempt at such has been quickly shortstopped by the good guysí gunfire, with minimal casualties among the innocent. Similar programs are in place in Peru and the Phillippines, with similarly successful results.
    He also pointed out that the rampant political correctness of todays liberal school administrators and politicians is a huge, huge hinderence in implementing similar programs in the USA.

    However, I think that is slowly starting to change. In 2008, a small Texas school district allowed teachers and other staff to carry concealed in school. Texas School District Will Let Teachers Carry Guns | Fox News

    Also, the state of Michigan just passed a bill which would allow the same thing and is awaiting signature from the Governor. There's no way the previous liberal Gov. Jennifer Granholm would have signed something like that, but hopefully the new Republican Gov. Snyder will sign it. Michigan governor reviewing new gun bill; stance unclear | Reuters

    Utah has already allowed CCW on college campuses by anyone with a ccw, students and faculty alike. I'm not sure about their primary grade schools and high schools regarding staff and faculty, so please chime in with any information on that.

    Along with removing the "gun free zone" status of schools, I believe all schools should adopt a training program for students on how to react and defend themselves when an active shooter is on the grounds and on a murderous rampage such as the program developed and started by Alon Stivi who is a former Israeli military officer who is an expert in counter-terrorism and personal defense. He got interested when he developed a program for the school where his own daughter attended. His company is ACTCert.com (Attack Countermeasures Training).





    Until school administrators and politicians get their collective heads out of their butts, living in denial and reeking with political correctness, massacres will continue to happen in our schools, with the shooters continuing to carry out their horrific deeds unmolested.

    Below is an article from Policeone.com that our member Gary Slider posted yesterday from a seminar Lt. Col Dave Grossman did recently on school shootings. I'm reposting it here because we have so many thread running on this topic and people need to read it.

    Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial
    tcox4freedom and 64zebra like this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #52
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    After you harden the building, what do you do about recess and outdoor PE?

    It can't be all about physical barriers. There has to be a reactive force included that can get involved before the authorities arrive.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreddy View Post
    After you harden the building, what do you do about recess and outdoor PE?
    It's easy enough to have a controlled, staffed and monitored return to a building, particularly if there's a single point of entry for such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by phreddy View Post
    It can't be all about physical barriers. There has to be a reactive force included that can get involved before the authorities arrive.
    Of course it can't be all about hardened physical structures. It MUST also be about preparation, training, and procedures. Without these, mere facility enhancements are utterly pointless, given how easily circumvented they generally become once the "walls of the castle aren't manned."
    64zebra likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #54
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    How about a shooting range for the outdoor PE and throw in some karate and judo into the mix indoors or out. This should take care of most of the bullying since even the sissy boys and the girls will learn that it is OK to fight back. Incorrigible chillins and their families will be given whatever social and medical assistance we can muster.

    Insert respect and discipline here and all of society will become safer and more secure.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    How about a shooting range for the outdoor PE and throw in some karate and judo into the mix indoors or out. This should take care of most of the bullying since even the sissy boys and the girls will learn that it is OK to fight back. Incorrigible chillins and their families will be given whatever social and medical assistance we can muster.
    IIRC, there are a few high schools here and there that offer biathlon. Can't recall where I saw that, but it was within the last couple of years. Hm.

    Insert respect and discipline here and all of society will become safer and more secure.
    Absolutely. Any of the "harder" disciplines (martial disciplines) can help instill those things, if done right.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #56
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    We have a trap shooting teem here at our one and only high school in this small town - both boys and girls compete together!

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    How about a shooting range for the outdoor PE and throw in some karate and judo into the mix indoors or out. This should take care of most of the bullying since even the sissy boys and the girls will learn that it is OK to fight back. Incorrigible chillins and their families will be given whatever social and medical assistance we can muster.

    Insert respect and discipline here and all of society will become safer and more secure.
    Fine enough for JHS and HS, but you do realize I hope that the children killed in the CT incident were mostly 6 and 7 year olds.

    As for arming teachers, or expecting to teach them how to fight back, keep in mind that many if not most are young women
    who will shun a career which they perceive as being dangerous, and then the market will drastically force salaries to go up
    if they are expected to be armed guards and security as well as teachers and social workers, nurses and psychologists too. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    It's easy enough to have a controlled, staffed and monitored return to a building, particularly if there's a single point of entry for such things.


    I am more concerned about protecting the kids outside, not egress and ingress.

  14. #59
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    Good thoughts by Lt. Col. David Grossman. From about 2 years ago.

    Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreddy View Post
    I am more concerned about protecting the kids outside, not egress and ingress.
    If it's got to be outside, it's little different than inside. There's got to be some effective combination of perimeter defenses, staffing, tactics, weaponry or other factors capable of withstanding attack. Any approaching violent assailant needs to either be stopped before reaching the children, or stopped in the act of harming people, or folks get to deal with the results of such failure to do so.

    Whatever else is true, simply dumping kids into a large field that's surrounded by a chain link fence and "staffed" by a couple of "recess monitors" doesn't equate to a very effective ability to resist violent attack.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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