Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions?

This is a discussion on Hardening K-12 school facilities: suggestions? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Hopyard The key problem with your comment is the word "most." Because, people such as Lanza are not deterred by the threat ...

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The key problem with your comment is the word "most." Because, people such as Lanza are not
    deterred by the threat of being killed.
    and this is why the people/victims need to be able to defend themselves at the point of attack; they should have the tools and training to shoot this turd since he isn't deterred by the threat of being killed or the laws that he is breaking by being there doing what he is doing
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    They expect to die. They intend suicide.
    this is even more reason why people in schools need to be armed
    as a police officer that now deals specifically with suicidal/mental calls, I've been involved in many situations with suicidal people, if they go into a school with intent to kill or be killed, the people at that facility need to be prepared to defend themselves

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Their worst nightmare is failure; that is, being caught just before they actually accomplish their act.
    Their worst nightmare, if they are suffering psychosis, is the continuation of the psychosis, their "out" may be involuntary detainment or lashing out (shooting up a school), no matter what.....our kids need to be defended. When my kid is home or out with me, I'm armed to defend me and him. At school is when he is most vulnerable, and I'm sick and tired of having that feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Arming teachers or staff could actually end up being a bit counter productive if in the end that starts to attract
    idiots who want to commit suicide by teacher instead of suicide by cop.
    Hopyard, that is on par with the antis saying there will be blood in the streets and shootings all over the place by permit holders when states enact CHL/CWP laws....it hasn't happened, its actually been just the opposite.

    We could sit here and do "what if" scenarios all day long on what could happen if this, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
    Bottom line is that we have gun free zones setup to prevent possession of firearms there, and these jackwagons know that, know that there is no armed resistance in there, and they go to them already to murder and then either kill themselves or be killed by the responding officers.

    The only thing counter productive in all this is the gun free zones, and maybe the mind set of some of our population thinking that a sign or law will stop someone from committing a crime, or that teachers/staff shouldn't or can't have the correct equipment or mindset to face this evil.

    As a police officer, I see the problem, I deal with evil, psychotics, and respond to calls every day. Police will never get to an active shooter event to prevent 100% of murders in an active shooter event. Sure, we can get there and force the shooter to take their life or shoot them. But....Only the people on scene when the event is beginning and evolving will be able to affect it properly.

    Its the same mindset and logic used by everyone with weapons at home for SD or with a carry permit for SD when outside the home. We want to defend our lives if necessary. Only, my kid is now in the vulnerable position at the school, and I'm sleeping at home since I was on duty the night before.
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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by violinjim View Post
    What's an interesting parallel between the Portland Mall shooting and the Sandy Hook according to some of the news that has cleared up is that both perp's committed suicide when the good guys were near. The mall shooter shot himself when Nick Meli confronted him with his Glock. The Sandy Hook incident ended when he heard the sirens according to the reports. He had way more magazines on him that he didn't use. It's a crazy notion but the Israeli's might just have it right. At the very least, some Tasers on hand would be a start. Wonder about the legality of carrying one to schools?
    Jim
    These turds do 1 of 3 things: run out of ammo and are apprehended, kill themselves before or when LE arrives, or are killed by LE/other person legally carrying a weapon.
    As a cop, this all points to one thing to me....people at the scene when the shooting starts need to be able to defend themselves, and if its at a school they need to be able to defend my son and children everywhere.

    As for the Taser, a less lethal alternative is not the answer when faced with deadly force. Only deadly force should be used to face deadly force. As for the legalities of a Taser in school, each state can be different. In Texas, its legal but the employee would be subject to school/district policy and subject to termination, etc.
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    It is a fact that in most mass shootings, between 80% - 90% of all casualties happen before the arrival of police on the scene.

    The only way to reduce the number of casualties is to have an armed response present at the school when the shooter starts his shooting spree.

    Isreal as well as well as the Phillipine's has successfully dealt with this by instituting armed civilians in the schools. It is cost effective because the security force is drawn from Volunteer Parents and Grandparents. They receive Government sponsored training and certification, but their presence in the schools is on a voluntary basis to keep the cost to the school or state negligable.

    They are not trained police officers and they do not deal with things a police officer assigned as a "school resource" officer would. They don't deal with playground fights, searching lockers for drugs or any of that type of work. They are there strictly to engage armed gunmen who are actively shooting up the school.

    While this does not stop all school shootings (as no solution could), it has stopped all other incidents from becoming mass murders and the isolated incidents has only resulted in one or two casualties as a result of armed response on site. They haven't had a mass shooting incident at a school since 1974 when the program was instituted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnmbrewing View Post
    I still have not heard how long it took for the first responders to arrive. However the shooter was dead by his own hand before they entered the building. So all the SWAT members from all the LE agencies showed up to deal with the aftermath.
    One of the things I study and make presentations about is active shooter response. The recording of dispatch I've heard had the first officer on scene around 90 seconds after being dispatched, which is pretty good, don't know what delay was from first shots, to 911 call, to being dispatched; but the only acceptable response for these situation is immediate by the people on scene already
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilchman View Post
    There needs to be some kind of response from within the school, and it needs to be from multiple sources. Having a single guard sitting by the door is useless. Teachers should be trained / carry some kind of spray, plus have some self defense training. There also needs to be some armed response from within the school, I have no issue knowing that the teachers (or a subset of teachers) are carrying.

    I have no idea how you could actually go about securing the building forcing a possible intruder in through a single location. There are doors all over the buildings, students go outside for gym, recess, get to classrooms. I don't see how you can keep all doors locked at all times.
    agreed about armed response inside the school, don't agree with teachers being armed with spray--it would incapacitate others in the building and could actually impede proper response. There is a reason why we don't use OC in certain places, and this is one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    As for arming teachers, or expecting to teach them how to fight back, keep in mind that many if not most are young women
    who will shun a career which they perceive as being dangerous, and then the market will drastically force salaries to go up
    if they are expected to be armed guards and security as well as teachers and social workers, nurses and psychologists too. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
    thats why it shouldn't, and won't, be a mandatory thing, its only for those that already have the mindset, and most likely have their permit already

    If we can take people that have never had the mindset or fired a firearm of any type, and put them in a police academy, and train them properly, then we can sure as heck train people that love helping kids and want to see them succeed as well as go home safe at the end of the school day
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    Schnider did not sign the bill.
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