Women Officially in Combat Roles

This is a discussion on Women Officially in Combat Roles within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'm sure women can fly fighters and pull a trigger but how many have the upper body strength needed to hump 70 or 100 pounds ...

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  1. #91
    Senior Member Array KyBill's Avatar
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    I'm sure women can fly fighters and pull a trigger but how many have the upper body strength needed to hump 70 or 100 pounds of gear, or even pack a fallen comrade to safety? Answer, probably as few as the number of women firemen that can do it. Another stupid politically motivated idea by our government.

    Here's an idea- lets have two different physical standards, one for men and another for women. Just like they did when I was a child and everyone was assessed by the Presidents goals for physical fitness. See what that does for military morale.
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  3. #92
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    The issue, as I see it, (and I do have some small experience in the matter), is not so much the PT test, or the "standards" for getting into an MOS or a unit. It is actually LIVING THE LIFE. Being shot at does not make you an infantryman. Going on a six hour patrol does not make you in infantryman. Having your truck hit by an IED does not make you an infantryman. The life of the light/airborne/ranger infantry is completely unlike the life for ANY other MOS (18 series obviously excluded).

    I've laid on an ambush line for (seemingly) endless hours, with nowhere to go to relieve yourself save (if you were lucky) rolling over and "aiming over there." I've been in patrol bases or ORPs where the only way to stay warm was to literally lay in a big pile with your buddies, and try to worm your way into the middle. I've spent days in a hide site relieving myself into MRE bags. I've gone on a 47 day long patrol, with the only "shower" being baby wipes. It's not the admin road march that will get you, it's jumping into the field problem, marching all night through the thickest, wettest, nastiest brush imaginable, sleeping uncovered on the ground for the two hours that you got to sleep, and then doing it all over again the next day. And the next. And the next. Are there women than can do it? Of course there are, though the number is small (though the number is pretty small for men, as well). Will the military maintain the EXACT SAME standards that they have today - not only to "get in," but to STAY in these units? My experience screams that the answer will be a big, fat, honking NO. And that is why this is a bad idea.
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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Oh come on! Don't be bashful...most forum violations will expire in 90 days LOL
    I wouldn't count on that to save your butt, or anyone else's. There are "options" for folks who "don't see the light", they can receive either extra points, or points that never expire, or be gone in just seconds.
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  5. #94
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    The only way a woman can really "prove" herself on the front line is to actually be on the front line. If she finds out she can't physically do it...it's a little too late. Not only could she get killed but worse yet IMO, be captured. Not to mention the other soldiers have to deal with whatever happens.

    There are so many other Sociological, Psychological and Sexual reasons to argue but of course it's considered bad taste, politically incorrect or whatever, to talk about them in our society nowdays.

    What's the point anyway? Have we run out of able bodied men to fight? If I were a guy on the front line, I'd want the fastest, strongest soldier beside me, not the one who's involved in a social experiment and "proving themself" or "living out their dream".
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  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    The only way a woman can really "prove" herself on the front line is to actually be on the front line. If she finds out she can't physically do it...it's a little too late.
    Untrue, if the testing/training is sufficiently varied and complete. Goes for any sort of testing/training, at least those aspects that can be tested for competency, caliber/range, effectiveness. Though, your point about no combat soldier truly knowing until being in such situations is well taken. But then, that applies to anyone.
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  7. #96
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Women Officially in Combat Roles

    The first female killed in combat will be praised and honored for her bravery beyond that of any male in history. Unfortunately, her fellow soldiers will have to deal with the media blitz that follows.
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  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Because you didn't fulfill your "dreams" doesn't others can't. I don't think anyone is demanding anything, only the opportunity to prove themselves. It is not up to either of us to set the boundries of who can exceed at what.
    It's too bad you missed the whole point of my statement. That being said, again "opportunity" is not the purpose or stated mission of the military nor should it be so. That does not mean that there are not ample opportunities to accomplish major personal achievements (which was at least was partly my point). I think we may have been unduly influenced by Hollywood and reality shows. Thankfully, the military is neither. If one wants mere "opportunity" go on American Idol or The Apprentice. Let the military do what it does best and better than any other military in the world. Not to mention vastly better than any other governmental entity. I know from experience after serving on 5 different ships in my 20 years that ships' efficiency and effectiveness were not bettered when women embarked on combat ships.

  9. #98
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    Why are we discussing this at such great length, we all know why this was authorized by the Sec of Def, it is in keeping with the anointed ones agenda of "Change". Will it better our combat capabilities? I doubt that it will but to be fair to those women that want to serve in the role of a front line soldier we have to wait and see. One thing for sure the training drop out rates will increase dramatically if the training requirements are not changed to accommodate female trainees. This is based on my training, my short term as a Drill Sgt , combat experience and my years served in many different leadership positions while I served. But one thing for sure, the present day military is nothing like the military that I served in. Nuff said.
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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    The first female killed in combat will be praised and honored for her bravery beyond that of any male in history. Unfortunately, her fellow soldiers will have to deal with the media blitz that follows.
    You haven't paid much attention to recent combat deaths and injuries in the last 8 years, have you? Many young ladies have already suffered death and wounds.
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  11. #100
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    Regardless of what we feel, the DOD has seen fit to go on with this "experiment" as some call it. I doubt the whole idea is "male driven," and now many women will get what they wished for. The downside to wishing is that now they will get it.

    This will either succeed, and the military will say "I told you so"; or it will fail and the military will do some fast backtracking. Time--and not opinions--will prove this to be right or wrong.
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  12. #101
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    The issue, as I see it, (and I do have some small experience in the matter), is not so much the PT test, or the "standards" for getting into an MOS or a unit. It is actually LIVING THE LIFE. Being shot at does not make you an infantryman. Going on a six hour patrol does not make you in infantryman. Having your truck hit by an IED does not make you an infantryman. The life of the light/airborne/ranger infantry is completely unlike the life for ANY other MOS (18 series obviously excluded).

    I've laid on an ambush line for (seemingly) endless hours, with nowhere to go to relieve yourself save (if you were lucky) rolling over and "aiming over there." I've been in patrol bases or ORPs where the only way to stay warm was to literally lay in a big pile with your buddies, and try to worm your way into the middle. I've spent days in a hide site relieving myself into MRE bags. I've gone on a 47 day long patrol, with the only "shower" being baby wipes. It's not the admin road march that will get you, it's jumping into the field problem, marching all night through the thickest, wettest, nastiest brush imaginable, sleeping uncovered on the ground for the two hours that you got to sleep, and then doing it all over again the next day. And the next. And the next. Are there women than can do it? Of course there are, though the number is small (though the number is pretty small for men, as well). Will the military maintain the EXACT SAME standards that they have today - not only to "get in," but to STAY in these units? My experience screams that the answer will be a big, fat, honking NO. And that is why this is a bad idea.
    Thought you were going to forget 18 series LOL.......Well said. Those are the reasons, not the BS about different PT standards and how women are not mentally tough enough. For those in the forum that have never been to Ranger School, or SFQC, or other certain course....a lot of the folks drop out because of mental toughness, and they are all guys falling out. If women went through they would fail at a higher rate for the physical part, but my guess is the drop outs..or "I Quits" fro females and males would be about the same.
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  13. #102
    Senior Member Array txron's Avatar
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    I have 2 daughters and no sons. Here is my take.

    Would I be proud if they chose to serve in the Military? Hell yes.
    Would I want them to be on the front line in a conflict? No. They are my kids and I want them to be safe at all times. I would worry constantly.
    Would they be capable to be on the front lineS in a conflict? Hell Yes. Both are capable do to any job they put their minds to do.

    Whether they are my sons or my daughters, if they are CAPABLE AND WILLING, then they should serve their country in all roles.
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  14. #103
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    The problem I see this is lets say you take a unit of 100 women who are about to deploy.

    Lets say that 20% of them get pregnant to get out of deployement (which does happen) now you have a combat unit of 80 out of 100 by definition that unit is no longer combat effective.
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  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    The problem I see this is lets say you take a unit of 100 women who are about to deploy.

    Lets say that 20% of them get pregnant to get out of deployement (which does happen) now you have a combat unit of 80 out of 100 by definition that unit is no longer combat effective.
    Not necessarily that high a percentage but that has proven the case aboard ship. My signal gang had 5 (6 counting me), left with 4 because of pregnancy (so in that particular case it was 20%) for a 6 month deployment. Did everyone else have to work a lot harder and stand longer watches? You better believe it! It affected everyone not just my guys for underway watches, the in-port duty section is also shorthanded. And unless things have changed, there is no replacement at least until she has the baby. Then if she has no suitable sitter/care for the child so that she is able to deploy or even stand duty in-port, the ship is required to wait until she is deemed unsuitable and a new replacement is ordered in. Sometimes took a year to get back up to proper personnel numbers.

  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigs View Post
    Not necessarily that high a percentage but that has proven the case aboard ship. My signal gang had 5, left with 4 because of pregnancy. Did the 4 guys left have to work a lot harder and stand longer watches? You better believe it!
    Not for nothing, but your example (1 of 5) is exactly the percentage (20%) that Rob99 suggested. :)
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