Women Officially in Combat Roles

This is a discussion on Women Officially in Combat Roles within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was just reading an article from the Navy Times (from Oct 2007) that said the number of single mothers in the Navy doubled from ...

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  1. #106
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    I was just reading an article from the Navy Times (from Oct 2007) that said the number of single mothers in the Navy doubled from 2001 to 2005. While no specific reasons for this massive increase is given, one may reasonably assume that the Navy being at "peace" prior to 2001 and at "war" after it may have had some impact on the decision to become pregnant (although it also noted that 60+% of pregnancies in enlisted female sailors was "unintentional"). Also, according to that article, women who became pregnant were given one YEAR of shore duty after they gave birth. That's a loooong time to be away from your actual job.

    This doesn't HAVE to be an issue, but it sure seems like it WILL be. At least without some controls put in place...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #107
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Oh come on! DOn't be bashful...most forum violations will expire in 90 days LOL
    Be careful what you request from now on!

    Well, after tossing and turning all night long with nightmares of having women in the fox hole with me in an actual combat situation... I'd rather be late to the party and not slap my computer hands not responding to a logical question and let my fingers do my talking. I'm probably going to get a bit offensive but, who ever said defending this nation is politically correct?

    I'm an old fart, a combat veteran and old fashion, and I believe women and children are to be loved, honored, put on a pedestal and cherished above all else. The Lord didn't create women and children to have the strength of an adult male, generally. What civilization or general in history has ever chosen an army of woman in-lieu of men and been successful?

    I also don't understand why a small percentage of the female population holds such sway and demands to be equal to men in every aspect? It's mentally / physically impossible and a joke passing laws of equality. You can no more pass a law to make two sexes equal than legislate morality and common sense.

    I don't know about you but, I don't want my wife, daughter or sister to volunteer or be drafted for front line combat duty. My only exception would be if we were being over run and about to lose our nation on our soil.

    Now the offensive scenarios I mentioned.

    The Geneva Convention and rules of war would need a drastic revision, to schedule and allow pad change breaks, pedicures, manicures, change of life chemistry changes etc. on the battle field.

    Johnny on the Spots would have to be deployed to all rear area combat areas to support those, “I need to use the powder room” moments that constantly occur with the female population. And what about those “bad hair days”?

    What happens when a female troop breaks a manicured finger nail and is upset? Get my drift?

    This lowering of physical and mental standards for race and gender does nothing but weaken our military and our society for a feel good reaction, all inclusive. B.S. When my life is on the line, I don't want to depend or trust an inferior individual with the only life I have, much less our national defense of our family and loved ones.

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  4. #108
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    The issue, as I see it, (and I do have some small experience in the matter), is not so much the PT test, or the "standards" for getting into an MOS or a unit. It is actually LIVING THE LIFE. Being shot at does not make you an infantryman. Going on a six hour patrol does not make you in infantryman. Having your truck hit by an IED does not make you an infantryman. The life of the light/airborne/ranger infantry is completely unlike the life for ANY other MOS (18 series obviously excluded).

    I've laid on an ambush line for (seemingly) endless hours, with nowhere to go to relieve yourself save (if you were lucky) rolling over and "aiming over there." I've been in patrol bases or ORPs where the only way to stay warm was to literally lay in a big pile with your buddies, and try to worm your way into the middle. I've spent days in a hide site relieving myself into MRE bags. I've gone on a 47 day long patrol, with the only "shower" being baby wipes. It's not the admin road march that will get you, it's jumping into the field problem, marching all night through the thickest, wettest, nastiest brush imaginable, sleeping uncovered on the ground for the two hours that you got to sleep, and then doing it all over again the next day. And the next. And the next. Are there women than can do it? Of course there are, though the number is small (though the number is pretty small for men, as well). Will the military maintain the EXACT SAME standards that they have today - not only to "get in," but to STAY in these units? My experience screams that the answer will be a big, fat, honking NO. And that is why this is a bad idea.
    Well said OPFOR! You kind of brushed on one of the questions I have. Once they "volunteer" for a Combat Arms MOS, make it through the training but learn, as you have said, the life of the infantryman isn't for them, can they just decide to un-volunteer and just be reassigned? That will a be real morale booster making two classes of volunteers; one who can't back out with serious repercussions to their careeer and another that can "decide" it's not for them.....
    rolyat63
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  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    Be careful what you request from now on!

    Well, after tossing and turning all night long with nightmares of having women in the fox hole with me in an actual combat situation... I'd rather be late to the party and not slap my computer hands not responding to a logical question and let my fingers do my talking. I'm probably going to get a bit offensive but, who ever said defending this nation is politically correct?

    I'm an old fart, a combat veteran and old fashion, and I believe women and children are to be loved, honored, put on a pedestal and cherished above all else. The Lord didn't create women and children to have the strength of an adult male, generally. What civilization or general in history has ever chosen an army of woman in-lieu of men and been successful?

    I also don't understand why a small percentage of the female population holds such sway and demands to be equal to men in every aspect? It's mentally / physically impossible and a joke passing laws of equality. You can no more pass a law to make two sexes equal than legislate morality and common sense.

    I don't know about you but, I don't want my wife, daughter or sister to volunteer or be drafted for front line combat duty. My only exception would be if we were being over run and about to lose our nation on our soil.

    Now the offensive scenarios I mentioned.

    The Geneva Convention and rules of war would need a drastic revision, to schedule and allow pad change breaks, pedicures, manicures, change of life chemistry changes etc. on the battle field.

    Johnny on the Spots would have to be deployed to all rear area combat areas to support those, “I need to use the powder room” moments that constantly occur with the female population. And what about those “bad hair days”?

    What happens when a female troop breaks a manicured finger nail and is upset? Get my drift?

    This lowering of physical and mental standards for race and gender does nothing but weaken our military and our society for a feel good reaction, all inclusive. B.S. When my life is on the line, I don't want to depend or trust an inferior individual with the only life I have, much less our national defense of our family and loved ones.

    Ladies and gentleman... I have thick skin so, sock it to me!

    I'm talking about physical limitations that can't be overcome. You're talking about stereo typical behaviors that frankly are insulting to military women. Not all women worry about their hair and nails. They are just as professional and dedicated as men; and just as aware of the seriousness of their duty.

    You were kidding, right?
    oldnfat, Betty, OldVet and 1 others like this.
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  6. #110
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    Carrying a M240 on a 12 mile ruck march with over 800 blanks, which is lighter then normal ammo, kicked my butt. I was 150 pounds at that time and scrawny, Id like to see a female do that, without slowing down the rest of the element or taking off gear.
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  7. #111
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    Johnny on the Spots would have to be deployed to all rear area combat areas to support those, “I need to use the powder room” moments that constantly occur with the female population. And what about those “bad hair days”?

    What happens when a female troop breaks a manicured finger nail and is upset? Get my drift?


    When I had a flat tire, I immediately pulled out my tools and got to work while my boyfriend at the time just stood there with a blank look on his face. I don't think he could even ID a socket wrench. I broke some of my fingernails and ended up covered in crud and grease, but that was fine. I was up and running in 40 minutes. My father was a two-tour Viet Nam veteran and he made sure his little girl didn't have to rely on a man to change a tire. My mother is rice paddy farmer strong, and I wouldn't want to arm wrestle her. She's as tough as they get, and when the power goes out, she doesn't even bat an eye. It's still a luxury to her. How many men can say the same?

    I am certified in carrying the ASP baton. In one of my classes, there was this guy in a nicely pressed shirt who refused to get down in the grass with the rest of us, because he didn't want to get dirty.

    I think the military would be happy to have an able and willing woman over an unable and unwilling man.
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  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    This lowering of physical and mental standards for race and gender does nothing but weaken our military and our society for a feel good reaction, all inclusive. B.S. When my life is on the line, I don't want to depend or trust an inferior individual with the only life I have, much less our national defense of our family and loved ones.

    Ladies and gentleman... I have thick skin so, sock it to me!
    Can you please explain that. FWIW you don't have to be a rcoket scientist to qualify to be an infantryman(just saying that the scores needed to get in are not high. In fact though, some of the brightest folks I know are infrantry). What does race or gender have to do with ones mental capabilities?
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  9. #113
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    The sexual bias here is somewhat surprizing. I think females would quickly figure out their "hygene" needs and adapt to what the situation requires. Thie problem didn't just start yesterday with the invention of "Always." I'm sure they can crap in a MRE bag just like the guys, which I wouldn't want to try either. Convenient, no. Impossible, no either. Give them the chance they wanted and let them succeed or fail on their own initiative. If their physical limitations prove them inadaquate, then so be it.

    And some of the better gals I worked with would just as quickly smack you down as drink you under the table. I can verify the latter.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  10. #114
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Women have 'superior mental toughness' to men? I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I disagree.
    I don't even know why I wrote that. I was just trying to be polite, really. I guess I was specifically thinking of child birth, and I have heard that women have slightly higher pain tolerances because of that.

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    There are plenty of important and valuable jobs in the military for women but the front lines isn't one of them!
    I agree with you.

    I believe there would be resistance to deploying an all female combat unit so why would it be acceptable to instead insert them into a regular combat unit? What is it they can't do collectively that they can do individually? It certainly isn't being wounded or dying. Unless men are socialized differently to what is acceptable behavior toward women and attitudes, values, etc., about women good men will die doing the "right" thing.

    You simply can't have your cake and eat it to.
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  12. #116
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    the military is adapting in many ways and down sizing as well nothing can be done about that from my experience women who want to serve on the front line join the MP corps just because its the closes thing to combat they can get down rang MPs fight on the front lines with the infantry so women have been fighting on the line for years and you are right the infantrymen are going to have a heck of a time adapting to this new change from all the women I've met in the army I know they can handle them self's and fight one heck of a fight we live in a free country its only fair that have the same rights as men to serve in a position they chose they only want to serve our country same as men and I am one man who has no problem with ladies doing the job they want only 1% of America serves in the us forces.

  13. #117
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    They'll just change the requirements so women can pass. Under [political] the military is not for fighting and winning wars, it's for engineering society.

    As for me, I'm the kind of guy who physically defends women and doesn't think their role is to defend me except in the most dire emergency. I consider this disgraceful.
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  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    The first female killed in combat will be praised and honored for her bravery beyond that of any male in history. Unfortunately, her fellow soldiers will have to deal with the media blitz that follows.
    It's a little late for that. Women have already been KIA!
    Rick

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  15. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawdawg1217 View Post
    the military is adapting in many ways and down sizing as well nothing can be done about that from my experience women who want to serve on the front line join the MP corps just because its the closes thing to combat they can get down rang MPs fight on the front lines with the infantry so women have been fighting on the line for years and you are right the infantrymen are going to have a heck of a time adapting to this new change from all the women I've met in the army I know they can handle them self's and fight one heck of a fight we live in a free country its only fair that have the same rights as men to serve in a position they chose they only want to serve our country same as men and I am one man who has no problem with ladies doing the job they want only 1% of America serves in the us forces.
    This reads like a drunk Immanuel Kant.

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolyat63 View Post
    Once they "volunteer" for a Combat Arms MOS, make it through the training but learn, as you have said, the life of the infantryman isn't for them, can they just decide to un-volunteer and just be reassigned? That will a be real morale booster making two classes of volunteers; one who can't back out with serious repercussions to their careeer and another that can "decide" it's not for them.....
    Oddly enough there are some military fields, very few, where you can walk into your MILPO office and say "I quit!", but I doubt Infantry is one of them. I was in one, (Army) MOS 55D (now 89D), and in the 19 years I was in that job I actually saw it happen twice!

    Additionally 55D/89D started accepting females in the mid-1970s and since then along with the male casualties, the field has lost a few females, including one of the first females lost in Iraq.
    Rick

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