Lessons learned and lingering questions--seeking input

Lessons learned and lingering questions--seeking input

This is a discussion on Lessons learned and lingering questions--seeking input within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; OK, last night in the Academy, we used the integrated training system that projects life-sized images and plays interactive scenarios and records shots fired/shot placement ...

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Thread: Lessons learned and lingering questions--seeking input

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    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Lessons learned and lingering questions--seeking input

    OK, last night in the Academy, we used the integrated training system that projects life-sized images and plays interactive scenarios and records shots fired/shot placement (it was calibrated for 15 round glocks). All of us were sucked right into the scenarios, they are very realistic--I found my heart pumping, etc. I was fortunate to run four different scenarios, not all of them were deadly force---BUT of the ones that were, here are my take-aways:

    (1) the need to shoot came FAST, FAST, FAST

    (2) While I shoot paper targets well, when trying to shoot somebody coming at me with a knife or gun, I was focused on the target and not the sights---I managed to shoot the attackers and stop the threat, but shot placement was not all that good.

    (3) I shot WAY more than I thought I would (about six-seven rounds each time I was forced to fire).

    (4) While I love my 1911s, realizing that I would have almost shot my gun dry was pretty sobering.

    (5) I am thinking about the unthinkable--buying a Sig 226/229 in .357 or .40, trying to balance more Magazine capcity with better performance than the 9 mm. (Glocks are fine weapons, but I just don't like the feel in my hand)

    I am open to thoughts, insights, etc
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Keep the 1911's... once the magazine capacity is 7 you'll have no need for the evil high-capacity Sigs. And better 8 rounds of .45 (let the caliber wars begin!) than fewer rounds of a lesser caliber.

    Seriously, though... I don't think the 9mm is a poor defensive round in any way, even if I am a .45 ACP guy.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    I love my 1911's......but, it's hard to argue with my Glock 30sf and 10 + 1 rounds of .45acp......That's Some Serious Business.
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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    OK, last night in the Academy, we used the integrated training system that projects life-sized images and plays interactive scenarios and records shots fired/shot placement (it was calibrated for 15 round glocks). All of us were sucked right into the scenarios, they are very realistic--I found my heart pumping, etc. I was fortunate to run four different scenarios, not all of them were deadly force---BUT of the ones that were, here are my take-aways:

    (1) the need to shoot came FAST, FAST, FAST

    (2) While I shoot paper targets well, when trying to shoot somebody coming at me with a knife or gun, I was focused on the target and not the sights---I managed to shoot the attackers and stop the threat, but shot placement was not all that good.

    (3) I shot WAY more than I thought I would (about six-seven rounds each time I was forced to fire).

    (4) While I love my 1911s, realizing that I would have almost shot my gun dry was pretty sobering.

    (5) I am thinking about the unthinkable--buying a Sig 226/229 in .357 or .40, trying to balance more Magazine capcity with better performance than the 9 mm. (Glocks are fine weapons, but I just don't like the feel in my hand)

    I am open to thoughts, insights, etc
    My only thoughts on the bolded (and keep in mind this is coming from a NON-LEO perspective) is that I tend to have a more natural point of aim with my 1911's than I do with my glock(ie my sights are not necessary under 20 yards or so and again on PAPER TARGETS and not the kind that shoot back). That said, i've still been carrying my glock for a while now. It's a balancing act...
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    My only thoughts on the bolded (and keep in mind this is coming from a NON-LEO perspective) is that I tend to have a more natural point of aim with my 1911's than I do with my glock(ie my sights are not necessary under 20 yards or so and again on PAPER TARGETS and not the kind that shoot back). That said, i've still been carrying my glock for a while now. It's a balancing act...
    It truly is a balancing act. There's a 1911 in a gun safe in my bedside drawer. I'm carrying a 5-shot snubby as I type this.

    However, in June I'm going on an annual motorcycle trip that I take by myself. I calculate a greater chance of meeting trouble in numbers, so I'll be carrying a G19 with G17 spare mags.

    You lays your money down and you takes your chances.
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    VIP Member Array NONAME762's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    OK, last night in the Academy, we used the integrated training system that projects life-sized images and plays interactive scenarios and records shots fired/shot placement (it was calibrated for 15 round glocks). All of us were sucked right into the scenarios, they are very realistic--I found my heart pumping, etc. I was fortunate to run four different scenarios, not all of them were deadly force---BUT of the ones that were, here are my take-aways:

    (1) the need to shoot came FAST, FAST, FAST

    (2) While I shoot paper targets well, when trying to shoot somebody coming at me with a knife or gun, I was focused on the target and not the sights---I managed to shoot the attackers and stop the threat, but shot placement was not all that good.

    (3) I shot WAY more than I thought I would (about six-seven rounds each time I was forced to fire).

    (4) While I love my 1911s, realizing that I would have almost shot my gun dry was pretty sobering.

    (5) I am thinking about the unthinkable--buying a Sig 226/229 in .357 or .40, trying to balance more Magazine capcity with better performance than the 9 mm. (Glocks are fine weapons, but I just don't like the feel in my hand)

    I am open to thoughts, insights, etc
    I am not LE nor do I portray LE on Netflix. That said I would love to run a course like that sometime, even just ONCE before I cash in. OK it's on the Bucket List. I'm sure my results would be a real eye opener.

    BTW OP thanx for being a Sky Pilot when you were in. I availed myself of one of you guys a time or 2 when I was in.

    [QUOTE] WHEC724= Hey Whec is that Snubby you're wearing today happen to be a Ruger LCR? Oh and BTW..."You lays your money down and you takes your chances is right up there with Gallavantin' Brother!!
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    Senior Member Array Hoplyte's Avatar
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    Chaplin Scott, I am going to say this, Glock folks don't get angry, I own a few my self. There are other guns out there. Many base their grip on the 1911 grip angle and have higher round counts, S&W M&P, FNH, Springfield Armory, etc. Try them out and see what works for you. I find my FNS-40 fits my hand better than my Glock 23. Best wishes in finding a gun that works for you.

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    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    ..... (Glocks are fine weapons, but I just don't like the feel in my hand)...
    Try a "Grip Force Adapter". This changes grip angle slightly and makes a Glock feel almost identical to a 1911.

    -
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

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    Member Array bigsky109's Avatar
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    I also don't like the way the Glock feels in the hand. I like the 1911 feel much better. I bet you would like the feel of the S&W M&P and get it in the .40cal. Much more capacity than the .45 and you aren't sacrificing anything in "stopping power"
    "The key to freedom is the ability to defend yourself"

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    One thing I'll add is don't beat yourself up over the lack of accuracy. Going from standing in front of a static paper target and introducing the variables that you experienced is going to expose a major difference in how you've shot in the past vs. dynamic events in the 'real world'. Any shot that stops the threat and doesn't injure any other parties is a 'good' shot.
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    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    I've also trained with a similar system... I think they called it FATS (firearms training simulator)

    The first few times I did it with six, and five shot revolvers, later I did it with Glock 19 pistol. I have to say there wasnt much difference in the results. If anything the equipment taught ne to take my time and get hits... IN A HURRY!. I guess that because I trained with the revolvers, when we went to the Glocks I was just as stingy with my ammo. I'd say that the 1911 is no better or worse than any other gun, other than personal preference.

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    VIP Member Array Easy8's Avatar
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    Add me to one that wood love to try the training you went through. Back in the 60 - 70's the training at Fort Gordon was limited to range time an how to drive a jeep without tipping over :) being older an not going into marginal areas my snubs keep me company. But I am trying to get a .44 sp for a project gun, I would like to put that into the rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    OK, last night in the Academy, we used the integrated training system that projects life-sized images and plays interactive scenarios and records shots fired/shot placement (it was calibrated for 15 round glocks). All of us were sucked right into the scenarios, they are very realistic--I found my heart pumping, etc. I was fortunate to run four different scenarios, not all of them were deadly force---BUT of the ones that were, here are my take-aways:

    (1) the need to shoot came FAST, FAST, FAST

    (2) While I shoot paper targets well, when trying to shoot somebody coming at me with a knife or gun, I was focused on the target and not the sights---I managed to shoot the attackers and stop the threat, but shot placement was not all that good.

    (3) I shot WAY more than I thought I would (about six-seven rounds each time I was forced to fire).

    (4) While I love my 1911s, realizing that I would have almost shot my gun dry was pretty sobering.

    (5) I am thinking about the unthinkable--buying a Sig 226/229 in .357 or .40, trying to balance more Magazine capcity with better performance than the 9 mm. (Glocks are fine weapons, but I just don't like the feel in my hand)

    I am open to thoughts, insights, etc
    Yes, we shoot to stop the threat. I plan on 5-6 rounds per when doing FonF. I enthusiastically and wholeheartedly recommend the M&P full-sized.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    I have a FNH FNX-45 that I really like. It has fifteen plus one capacity in .45 ACP and I got it for under $600.00.
    I carry a gun, because a Cop is too heavy.

    U.S. Army, Retired
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    Senior Member Array cn262's Avatar
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    I have used the 300 degree video system at Gander Mountain and found it helpful and surprising since in a few scenarios someone would come out behind a car on the complete opposite side and really take you by surprise. I would guess that the system you used was similar but better.

    My first Force on Force experience was eye-opening. The first time I was hit I just stopped, and the next few times afterwards I would empty the gun (Airsoft) too fast - just kept pulling the trigger. It only took a couple of scenarios to improve, but it wasn't what I expected because it's not how I practice.

    My last FOF experience (Commonwealth Criminal Justice Institute in Fredricksburg, VA - a truly incredible experience) was just as eye-opening. The scenarios were far more realistic and faster (even though they said they weren't going full speed), and used Simunition guns with FX marking cartridges - something you feel much more than Airsoft. The whole "Fast, Fast, Fast" comment completely resonates with me after that. It was amazing how much I felt I improved after two days and 20 hours, but it also pointed out the gap between where I thought I thought I was relative to someone who is truly good.

    The net-net is that the way I practice now is different than just a week ago, and I'm consider switching my G27 spare mags with G22 mags (which are a little tougher to conceal) because of the extra 50% capacity. More is definitely better, especially when there are multiple attackers or you are in an area that you cannot easily leave / escape.

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