Idle speculation

This is a discussion on Idle speculation within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Was discussing the N Hollywood shootout with a buddy today and two things came to mind, apart that is from LE having/needing rifles on hand. ...

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Thread: Idle speculation

  1. #1
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    Idle speculation

    Was discussing the N Hollywood shootout with a buddy today and two things came to mind, apart that is from LE having/needing rifles on hand.

    The most vulnerable areas of those two slimeballs was their heads - no body armor there. I used to shoot long range handgun and even with a mere 9mm - am sure a solid head shot even at near 100 yards - would be effective. Under stress however, with incoming rifle rounds - not easy at all.

    To that end the thinking then comes back to protection for LE - not just their own probably cat' II armor only but something portable. Usually the poor guys have little to use for cover than their cruisers - so are vulnerable to rifle rounds, even those that skip under the car.

    I was wondering if there was or could be made - a folding ceramic armor deal that would fit in a cruiser trunk but when deployed stand up on its own and have a fire port just big enough for the shooter to get measured shots off without fear of taking a round to the body.

    Imagine a hinged three piece deal - front would be ceramic plate18" x 36" perhaps, material that would hold back a 30 cal - and the side panels, something lighter and tapering toward the top, but such that when deployed it would be a self supporting ''U'' shape. The cop could kneel behind this safely and get on with the business of returning fire to good effect.

    OK - just late evening musings! I just want the good guys to always win
    Chris - P95
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    The Baker BatShield ( http://www.bakerbatshield.com/faq.asp ) is supposed to be good...but not rifle rated...I think.

    The problem with most shield is weight and portability. I remember "playing" around with one at FLETC, and that one was, I believe, rated only to defeat handgun and shotgun rounds...and it did, it once belonged to the DEA and had a couple of rounds still stuck to it. Well, that sucker was heavy.
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    Member Array steve_db's Avatar
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    ballistic shields come in a variety of shapes and sizes.
    'bout 1/2 way down this page:
    http://www.firstdefense.com/html/Law..._BodyArmor.htm

    some more, ladder and shield combo:
    http://www.patriot3online.com/ladder_shield.html

    if you navigate around these two sites - there are some interesting products and info , e.g. ballistic ratings/laminate glass, etc...

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    Member Array steve_db's Avatar
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    btw - I think the "ladder shield" is rated level 3 (ak47 7.62)

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    The Baker BatShield
    Ahh - shoulda thought to ask you on that!!! I realize heavy would be a downside but - if it fits in trunk then heck - it sure seems worth having.

    I am sure stuff exists but thinking back to N Hollywood - no one had anything on hand.

    Maybe it is more a case of both - have rifle, and have ballistic protection - on the spot!

    Thx Steve - I fancied stuff was out there but it's no good if the good guys don't have it handy.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    having a portable bunker would given the cops a huge advantage, especially when it came to helping the wounded. As unfortunant as the N Hollywood shootout was, if I remember, the only people who lost their lives were the robbers. Seeing how the odds were stacked, LEO armed only with pistols and the robbers with rifles and tons of AP ammo, you would have thought things would end differenlty. I think the one thing keeping portable bunkers out of the trunks of cruisers would have to be the price tag. Plus, I'd also think administration would say if an officer had to exit his vehicle to deploy the bunker, he might as well use the whole car itself as protection. The best and easiest move the dept. did was issue rifles. That should quall most incidents, unless the bad guys are using mortars or crew served weapons. Many LEO's are prior military (I think), and are familiar with the M-16 platform, so the learning curve is low. Also, can't you get old surplus rifles on the cheap? that might be a benefit.

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    Its hard enough to get guys to wear their vests, let alone shields.
    Often it hits the fan before you know its coming, and the shield is in the trunk. Quick access to rifles and skilled operators was the answer to this problem. A cheaper and quicker solution would be to toss a box of slugs in each cruiser... utilize what you got.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    ARs, .more pistols with chamberings begining with a "4," shields, tactical team upgrades, training oportunities, a host of cool guy gear- The list of things which US law enforcement gained from the aftermath of the LA Shootout could go on and on...

    Good for the most part, I'd argue.

    The thing is that few slugs on hand and the LA Shootout wouldn't have been much more than a foot note.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    The thing is that few slugs on hand and the LA Shootout wouldn't have been much more than a foot note.
    As dark as it is to say, the Hollywood shoot out has been good for L.E.

    You really think that if each cruiser was equipt with 5 slugs to go along with the 870, it wouldn't have made a difference?

    Even if they only made com hits and did not defeat the armor, it would have had a heck of a punch the 9mm just doesn't have. I think it would have been g'nite much quicker.

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    From what I have heard,the BG's had torso armor only. If this is true,I can't undersrand why the LEO's didn't try to make a,or accidently make, a head,neck,thigh,or lower leg,shot. Seems to me that at 60-100yds the buckshot pattern has a good chance of hitting one of the above.

    Awhile after this incident my group had a "discussion" about the above shootout. We went to the liquor stores in the area(I was in Calif. at the time) and got the full sized,hard cardboard,figures of "Elvira" and others, to shoot at.

    With pistols at 60(or so) yards it was not too difficult to put rds. in thighs or head/necks. Now granted,this,under no stress,or return fire.

    Just seems to me that of all the rds. fired at the BG's,some bullets or buckshot would have found a unprotected area of the BG's anatomy.

    This is not ment to be critical of the on scens LEO's. I was not there. Just thought's. -------

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ View Post
    Seems to me that at 60-100yds the buckshot pattern has a good chance of hitting one of the above.
    The problem with this is not enough power at this distance. LEO could not close the distance due to the superior firepower of the BG. Also, the chances of having a flyer strike something you don't want to is to high when using a buckshot at a great distance.

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    Just seems to me that of all the rds. fired at the BG's,some bullets or buckshot would have found a unprotected area of the BG's anatomy.
    Indeed, the stress of the situation was against the cops but - I had always thought it unfortunate that a round did not find a head. While the BG's were of course spraying huge amounts of rounds - meaning the cops had to keep heads down, can't help thinking that at odd times one individual might have had the chance for that long shot or two.

    Easy to speculate - of course!

    This does to a degree highlight the usefullness for anyone, of knowing what degree of aim-off to apply with long shots from handguns. Despite low energy figures at longer ranges, I am convinced a connection with a head shot from a .40 would have been if not lethal, enough to put a guy down.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    RSSZ,

    I have to agree, it does seem like the cops could've got one lucky shot, but as we say we weren't there and didn't experience the power of auto firing rifles firing in our direction.

    I don't mean this in a critical way, but it seems that LEO's training is just enough to qualify, which is in my way of thinking, a person with a gun without adequate shooting skills to start with and then add the stress of the gunfight...

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    SIXTO, I feel that a single "00" buck at(even) 100yds would penetrate skull or into femoral autory.

    P95,10-4(heck yeah) your post. Even bird shot at 100yds in the eye would have taken some fight outta them.

    Tangle,Re. your above post about LEO training........When rangemester/armoror at a NAS,part of my job was to let the local LEO's use "my" range. I had local,state,federal,and some from branches of the DOE and DOJ. This,while I was not training parts of our services.(only range in the area) Without violateing Bumpers commands,I will say that I found the civilian LEO training,..............well.............lacking. ---------

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    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    Mobile shielding is a great idea, but I'd suggest armoring the cab of the cruiser. It's already set up that way, and the officer is already inside. If you armored the doors, firewall, and the back of the rear seat, it would give the officer a great deal of protection.

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