NYC and Bloomberg on the ropes again

This is a discussion on NYC and Bloomberg on the ropes again within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Looks like NYC's "stop and frisk" policy is about to go bye-bye. According to the records the policy is appearing racist and ineffective: "In 2012, ...

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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    NYC and Bloomberg on the ropes again

    Looks like NYC's "stop and frisk" policy is about to go bye-bye. According to the records the policy is appearing racist and ineffective:
    "In 2012, police made 533,042 stops under the program, and roughly 87 percent were of blacks or Hispanics. In the vast majority of these stops about 9 in 10 those stopped walked away without being arrested or even ticketed."

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    Those statistics cut both ways - that says that 53,000 people who were stopped did NOT get away without some sort of legal intervention. Without further study or interpretation I'd hold off on calling that "ineffective."

    As for "profiling" - I think the Israelis seem to use that approach to their benefit. I'm not ready to call it "bad", but I'm also no friend of the ACLU.
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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Point is, they were stopped with no pc except how they looked. I still remember in San Diego in the early 90's black Marines were stopped by police and photographed/id'ed just b/c of the clothes they wore. These Marines had only been in CA for a couple of weeks and were waiting to ship out to the Middle East. As I understand it, this isn't anywhere close to the professional and trained tactics the Israeli's use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Looks like NYC's "stop and frisk" policy is about to go bye-bye. According to the records the policy is appearing racist and ineffective:
    "In 2012, police made 533,042 stops under the program, and roughly 87 percent were of blacks or Hispanics. In the vast majority of these stops about 9 in 10 those stopped walked away without being arrested or even ticketed."
    The other half of the impact is: deterrence. It's hard to say what the impact is, in terms of how many criminals just felt the heat was too heavy so that they went elsewhere or ratcheted down their criminality.

    NY CLU's summary, 2002-2012: Stop-and-Frisk Data | New York Civil Liberties Union (NYCLU) - American Civil Liberties Union of New York State

    N.Y. CPL. LAW 140.50: Temporary questioning of persons in public places; search for weapons.

    1. In addition to the authority provided by this article for making an arrest without a warrant, a police officer may stop a person in a public place located within the geographical area of such officer's employment when he reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor defined in the penal law, and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his conduct.
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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Dont see anything in that quoted law about frisking though. If theres no pc to stop there should be no stop, contact, questioning, or demanding of anything by LEO anyplace. But thats just me
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    Let me know when they are both on the deck and out for the count and I'll clap for joy.
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    The standard for an SQF (Stop question frisk) is reasonable suspicion, or artucuable suspicion. The law allowed for a police officer to use the common law right to inquiery. The same right we all enjoy. The person is not in custody, and my leave at any time. The person is under no obligation to cooperate. The law allows for an officer to FRISK! the person stopped for weapons only, this being done for officer safety. The term frisk is described as a cursery search or pat down of a subjects outer clothing only.

    This thing that IMO Bloomburg has the NYPD violating both the letter, and the spirit of the law is an abomination. Their excuse that it save's lives is bunk! SQF is an investigative tool for patrol officers, not a pre-emptive

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    The standard for an SQF (Stop question frisk) is reasonable suspicion, or artucuable suspicion. The law allowed for a police officer to use the common law right to inquiery.
    Two major problems in having this discussion.

    1) Human nature is involved. Impossible to discuss (profiling) w/o first turning off the politically correct filter.
    2) The (LAW). What law? Who's law? You mean corrupt laws written by people who have or had pecuniary interest?

    The (LAW) is continually molested, changed and interpreted.

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    when he reasonably suspects that such person is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor

    without pc this calls for psychic abilities .....
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    Did they stop and frisk Bloomberg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    1. In addition to the authority provided by this article for making an arrest without a warrant, a police officer may stop a person in a public place located within the geographical area of such officer's employment when he reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor defined in the penal law, and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his conduct.
    Of course, if you are engaged in criminal activity, you can not be forced to talk to the police. Self incrimination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Those statistics cut both ways - that says that 53,000 people who were stopped did NOT get away without some sort of legal intervention. Without further study or interpretation I'd hold off on calling that "ineffective."

    As for "profiling" - I think the Israelis seem to use that approach to their benefit. I'm not ready to call it "bad", but I'm also no friend of the ACLU.
    Although I am NO fan of any officer or government entity over stepping their bounds, Gasmitty has a point. When I worked as a drug interdiction officer I made literally HUNDREDS of vehicle stops trying to interdict drug traffic/trade. Of the stops I made 95% (actual percentage was like 94.6% calculated) of the stops I made were on white/caucasians. The reason for this was that was the predominant ethnic group in our jurisdiction. If an NYPD officer is patrolling in an area that has, lets say, 90% Latinos, then the overwhelming percentage of his interactions will reflect that demographic. As to the question of probable cause for the Stop & Frisk, I can't say if they had it or not. I can tell you every beat cop I know would not waste time indiscriminately searching folks, its a huge waste of time and energy. As to the issue of "profiling", this is an old term that keeps getting kicked out there. The truth is when I conducted interdiction stops I would never had been as successful as I was IF I HAD actually profiled someone. By demographics I would have missed the 90+ white guys carrying dope while looking for the one odd black fella. Indicators, which I will not go into in depth for professional reasons, are completely different. However, the guy going down the street with Crips or Bloods colors, favoring his right side, with his hoodie pulled up in mid-summer, that's an indicator....oh yeah, I'm going to introduce myself regardless of skin color.
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    Race can, and probably will be a huge contrbutor to a SQF. Anyone who thinks different needs a reality check. However profiling has absoloutly no place in any kind of police work. Race is incidental to a stop.... not the reason for the stop. Cops in lets say a hispanic neighborhood will of course tend to stop more hispanics.

    If an officer knows that most robberies in an area is commited by hispanic males so he stop and frisks 10 hispanics based on the knowlege..This is profiling, and should be addressed as a disciplinary problem. If that same officer recieve a radio message that a male hispanic wearing white sneakers, and a blue jacket just robbed a Bodega (thats for Hoppyard), and that officers stops 10 hispanics with white sneakers and blue jackets he's doing IMO good police work.

    I defined the traditional description of a SQF in a prior post. This was the definition of an SQF as handed down by the NYPD legal department. I have major issues with the crap the NYPD is pulling these days. The concept the NYPD uses these days is that most gun violence is commited by young blacks, and hispanics. Having that mindset, they authorize the police to stop, and search young black and hispanic people. What the police are doing is targeting specific communities, and specific members of that community to be acosted and searched. Based on race and age. This is racial profiling. Not stop n frisk. I dont know if anyone else is aware but King Bloomburg also banned large soft drinks, also gave edict that any women giving birth at a city hospital may not use commercial formula, but must breast feed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    Race can, and probably will be a huge contrbutor to a SQF. Anyone who thinks different needs a reality check. However profiling has absoloutly no place in any kind of police work. Race is incidental to a stop.... not the reason for the stop. Cops in lets say a hispanic neighborhood will of course tend to stop more hispanics.

    If an officer knows that most robberies in an area is commited by hispanic males so he stop and frisks 10 hispanics based on the knowlege..This is profiling, and should be addressed as a disciplinary problem. If that same officer recieve a radio message that a male hispanic wearing white sneakers, and a blue jacket just robbed a Bodega (thats for Hoppyard), and that officers stops 10 hispanics with white sneakers and blue jackets he's doing IMO good police work.

    I defined the traditional description of a SQF in a prior post. This was the definition of an SQF as handed down by the NYPD legal department. I have major issues with the crap the NYPD is pulling these days. The concept the NYPD uses these days is that most gun violence is commited by young blacks, and hispanics. Having that mindset, they authorize the police to stop, and search young black and hispanic people. What the police are doing is targeting specific communities, and specific members of that community to be acosted and searched. Based on race and age. This is racial profiling. Not stop n frisk. I dont know if anyone else is aware but King Bloomburg also banned large soft drinks, also gave edict that any women giving birth at a city hospital may not use commercial formula, but must breast feed.
    I agree...if there was no probable cause to initiate the contact/stop then its no good. If it is based on race its no good. My job as a criminal interdiction officer meant I hunted bad folks, and they come in all colors, shapes, and sizes. So to effectively do the job I had to do it proper and by the law. I think the NYPD has for the most part good officers. I do however, think they have some leadership issues that starts from "his dishonor the mayor" and works its way down.
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    Distinguished Member Array Hodad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exacto View Post
    Did they stop and frisk Bloomberg?
    I don't know for sure, but he probably put a height restriction of 5 feet or less on the stop and frisk so he would be exempted.
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