Frisk everyone leaving a crime scene?

This is a discussion on Frisk everyone leaving a crime scene? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was torn where to put this question but figured this would suffice since it mainly deals with LEO actions. A buddy of mine posted ...

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 79
Like Tree111Likes

Thread: Frisk everyone leaving a crime scene?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array DJC7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    628

    Frisk everyone leaving a crime scene?

    I was torn where to put this question but figured this would suffice since it mainly deals with LEO actions.

    A buddy of mine posted an article about the recent school shooting and it included a photo of police with a lot of kids lined up with hands in the air, receiving pat downs as they left the building. He used this as an example of how people need to stop giving up their rights, etc. Now, generally, I'm all for not having my rights violated, but feel that incidents like that are special circumstances. It's chaotic, police are trying to sort things out, figure out who is hostile and what exactly is going on. I feel like a quick pat down in this circumstance isn't really a violation of rights but a necessary step in trying to secure a hostile area. Am I off base or is he going a bit overboard? Interested in everyone's thoughts on this. Especially current and former LEOs.
    ”One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.”
    ~Thomas Jefferson


    "Carry your gun - it's a lighter burden than regret."
    ~Breda

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    25,804
    Have not been an LEO, here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJC7 View Post
    A buddy of mine posted an article about the recent school shooting and it included a photo of police with a lot of kids lined up with hands in the air, receiving pat downs as they left the building. He used this as an example of how people need to stop giving up their rights, etc. Now, generally, I'm all for not having my rights violated, but feel that incidents like that are special circumstances. It's chaotic, police are trying to sort things out, figure out who is hostile and what exactly is going on. I feel like a quick pat down in this circumstance isn't really a violation of rights but a necessary step in trying to secure a hostile area.
    That's pretty much my thinking ... if the situation is one in which it's not yet determined how many assailants, that any one of the exiting people might conceivably be an assailant, etc. Pretty much similar to LEO's arriving on-scene at a citizen-on-citizen, one-on-one robbery in which it isn't immediately clear who's the GG and BG. Better to take initial precautions and be safe, getting it right.

    In the case of many possible perps and many similarly-aged people mixed in with the assailants, as would be the case in a school situation with a school-aged assailant, I can't imagine any other way to do it but to eval each person through a cordon until the place is secure and the BG's and witnesses are all known. It's temporary, and IMO no good alternatives exist.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #3
    Member Array N.M. Edmands's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Yavapai County, Arizona
    Posts
    292
    Overboard? I lean towards your view, and your buddy is in danger of drowning in his own tears.
    Oh yeh? Well this was sent from the scary black electrical box under my desk, so there!
    "It aint how good you shoot, it's how cool you look doing it." [Fred Sayer 1994]
    H&K P7
    Colt XS, Star PD
    Caracal F

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Brent95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    S.C.
    Posts
    699
    Personally,if i were in the middle of a scene like the OP mentioned it wouldn't bother me one bit.How else do they find out who is who?
    gatorbait51 likes this.

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array sealteam20001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    wasilla alaska
    Posts
    1,351
    I think all schools should practice prevention of a problem, Before it becomes a problem!! Like having signs posted ""OUR STAFF MAY BE ARMED''. Wow just a NO BRAINER. Frisk before the problem not after.
    gatorbait51 likes this.

  7. #6
    Senior Member
    Array farsidefan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,058
    I have no problem with it. Now stop and frisk on a normal day and situation I have a huge problem with that. But at a crime scene like this? No problem at all. Catch 'em all if there were others. But leave the kid with an NRA t shirt alone. Certainly don't treat him with any special attention.
    gatorbait51, ctr and NONAME762 like this.
    Typos are for the entertainment of the reader. Don't let it go to your head

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Coastal SC
    Posts
    3,738
    Hmmm... It'd be interesting to find out what the legalities of it are and if it does/doesn't violate anybody's rights. Very well could be apples to oranges, but it reminds me of when the Boston bombing happened and they were searching any and everybody's home for the suspect.
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
    "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." - C.S. Lewis

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Where the deer and the antelope roam
    Posts
    2,704
    The police have an obligation to ensure the safety of the community at large. They were looking for accomplices. My guess is if little johnny had some weed he would lose it but not be prosecuted for it since the focus of said search was for weapons. That is how I would have done it.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    25,804
    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    Hmmm... It'd be interesting to find out what the legalities of it are and if it does/doesn't violate anybody's rights. Very well could be apples to oranges, but it reminds me of when the Boston bombing happened and they were searching any and everybody's home for the suspect.
    Apples and oranges, I'd say. That Boston mess wasn't a given crime scene, and it wasn't controlled. It was a wide swath of neighborhoods, in which anyone and everyone was forcibly searched. At a given limited crime scene during egress, however, I can see how having a cordon and sieve through which people are vetted makes a lot of sense, much the same as a specific roadblock due to specific intel for a given car and occupants.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Kennydale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Richmond/Rosenberg, TX
    Posts
    3,130
    Let's say your driving down a road and pulled over. The officer asks for an ID (You Comply). The only thing the officer says is that your vehicle matches a description of a suspect in a robbery. Do you play it Mr Nice Guy, or become a little arrogant and demand your rights as a free American ?
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    If you can, always carry, you can't choose the moments, they choose you. - Colion Noir (2013)

  12. #11
    VIP Member
    Array PEF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,497
    The frisk and "light search" of the students likely falls under the exigent circumstances exception to the fourth amendment. Active shooter in a school, need to make sure the students coming out of the crime scene are not one of the shooters, etc. This is much different from searching houses at random when a criminal is afoot.

    Absent controlling authority on point, if I were a Judge I wouldn't be too sympathetic on a civil rights violation. And likewise, I'd probably toss any evidence for a minor offense (e.g., weed as 40Bob points out) if some DA was idiotic enough to bring a charge against some student.
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array 19Kvet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    518
    This situation begs the question of: If this is acceptable, then where does our society draw the line of trading the right to be left alone by the state (ie privacy) and the state's need to fulfill its mandate to protect us from harm?

    I don't know if this example crossed the line but over the past 13 years we have given up a lot of our privacy to the state for a little bit of safety with no end in sight. I am far more afraid of the state overstepping its limits than a single killer getting another shot off.

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array 5lima30ret's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mountains of Western North Carolina
    Posts
    1,312
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC7 View Post
    I was torn where to put this question but figured this would suffice since it mainly deals with LEO actions.

    A buddy of mine posted an article about the recent school shooting and it included a photo of police with a lot of kids lined up with hands in the air, receiving pat downs as they left the building. He used this as an example of how people need to stop giving up their rights, etc. Now, generally, I'm all for not having my rights violated, but feel that incidents like that are special circumstances. It's chaotic, police are trying to sort things out, figure out who is hostile and what exactly is going on. I feel like a quick pat down in this circumstance isn't really a violation of rights but a necessary step in trying to secure a hostile area. Am I off base or is he going a bit overboard? Interested in everyone's thoughts on this. Especially current and former LEOs.
    You are not off base! You are spot on! What if the shooter had not killed himself and tried to sneak out with his fellow students and likely killed more people? How do you think that would played out in the media? Just sayin...
    gatorbait51, DJC7 and TomC51 like this.
    Retired Police Lieutenant, Retired USAF Reserve, Glock Armorer, NC CWP, HR-218 Qualified
    Second generation American, Third generation Legionnaire
    "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Phil 4:13

  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    1,732
    It all depends, but I think in that scenario most everyone will want the police to err on the side of caution. If gunshots are still echoing in the hall, a quick frisk of everyone leaving may ensure the shooter(s) does not escape.
    Hakkaa päälle!

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array 19Kvet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    518
    Quote Originally Posted by 5lima30ret View Post
    You are not off base! You are spot on! What if the shooter had not killed himself and tried to sneak out with his fellow students and likely killed more people? How do you think that would played out in the media? Just sayin...
    What ifs can be used to justify almost anything- including the infringement of liberty for ignoble goals. If I remember correctly, the British found "General" warrants a reasonable tactic to fight the sons of liberty and other anti-British rule groups. The NSA has used the "What If" of future terrorist attacks to spy on everyone.

    I wouldn't worry about how things play out in the media, very little plays well with them that includes the concept of freedom or limited government.
    Ghost1958 likes this.

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •