How To Stop Mass Killings In Schools

This is a discussion on How To Stop Mass Killings In Schools within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Great piece from one of the organizations which was instrumental in bringing shall issue to Ohio: Survey shows nearly two dozen Ohio schools authorize carrying ...

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Thread: How To Stop Mass Killings In Schools

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    How To Stop Mass Killings In Schools

    Great piece from one of the organizations which was instrumental in bringing shall issue to Ohio:
    Survey shows nearly two dozen Ohio schools authorize carrying of guns to improve kids safety | Buckeye Firearms Association
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike, good article...

    Good to see that many school districts are seeing the light... Interesting to note that opposition imagines scenarios worse than any previous school mass murder, yet can offer no viable solutions... Also interesting to note that the opposition is vocal... We need to speak up too, and louder if need be...
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    Armed protection of our politicians is a given. Not having it for our children is a disgrace.

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    Unfortunately it's clearly demonstrated last Friday that having armed guards at a school won't "stop" mass killings; it only shortens the time of the first responders. A more determined shooter could have caused much more damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unfortunately it's clearly demonstrated last Friday that having armed guards at a school won't "stop" mass killings; it only shortens the time of the first responders. A more determined shooter could have caused much more damage.
    The trend is for these folks is to shoot themselves at the arrival of armed response I'd rather that was sooner than later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unfortunately it's clearly demonstrated last Friday that having armed guards at a school won't "stop" mass killings; it only shortens the time of the first responders. A more determined shooter could have caused much more damage.
    Clearly I won't convince you, so I will refer you to what the head instructor of the active shooter training I received has to say on it:
    News ? Tactical Defense Institute - Tactical, Firearms Training, pistol, rifle, shotgun
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    Homeschool?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unfortunately it's clearly demonstrated last Friday that having armed guards at a school won't "stop" mass killings; it only shortens the time of the first responders. A more determined shooter could have caused much more damage.
    Zero deaths other than the shooter seems like a pretty good stop to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure armed guards won't stop everything, but using a situation where there were zero innocent deaths that was stopped early by an armed guard as having "demonstrated" that it won't stop them...that's a bit odd, don't ya think?

    In my eyes it was clearly demonstrated that while an armed guard is not a guarantee, it as a dang good idea that may save a lot of lives even if it doesn't manage to save all (though in this case it did...I personally don't consider the life of the shooter as valuable enough to count, sorry). It's definitely a great start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unfortunately it's clearly demonstrated last Friday that having armed guards at a school won't "stop" mass killings; it only shortens the time of the first responders. A more determined shooter could have caused much more damage.
    Or, more correctly, it's but one example of how the outcomes could end up. In that particular instance, the assailant was solo, wasn't that motivated and/or capable, and opted out at the end before maximal damage was done. As you point out, different circumstances could result in far different results, including duration, damage, their ability to escape, and all the rest. Hard to extrapolate to other situations or trends, based on a single event.

    Armed staff easily can, if on-site. It's a certainty they can't if not there. But if nothing else these on-site examples show what can occur, with motivated defenders capable of bringing the fight to the perp(s) in quick time.

    But, surely we can point to the correlation of armed staff inside such facilities to the damage levels and the 'exit plan' of the perp(s). This is one example of how seeming knowledge of armed response on-site caused the perp to be thwarted early. The Oregon mall shooting some months ago involved an armed person on-site as well, IIRC, as did the New Life Church shooting in Colorado.

    I'd love to see more school districts and states pulling the finger out, realizing that allowing lawfully armed citizens every opportunity to go armed around our most valuable "assets" is one of the key methods of withstanding predators in this world ... including at Criminal Empowerment Zones known as schools. It's high time we begin teaching our children we'll gladly lay down our very lives to save them if we can, 'cause we're doing everything we can do save them including something more than being capable of singing kum-bay-ya in the corner while awaiting execution. If only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unfortunately it's clearly demonstrated last Friday that having armed guards at a school won't "stop" mass killings; it only shortens the time of the first responders. A more determined shooter could have caused much more damage.
    If they would only follow the laws then none of this would be an issue. Problem solved! BTW, those are not only laws surrounding gun free zones, but also laws against shooting and murdering people.

    In lieu of that utopia it would seem that you would either need to:

    1. Secure schools like a Court House, Airport, or Prison. Not at all manageable and far too expensive, so it won't happen.
    2. Provide (or allow for) an immediate armed response. No, you won't completely eliminate deaths and casualties, but you can stop the bloodshed much faster (which is what happened this time - 18 seconds from one story I read).

    It's not a perfect world. Bad / deranged / evil people do bad, crazy and/or evil things. Until you find a way to isolate or eliminate (Note - this second option is sarcasm) those specific bad / deranged / evil people before they execute their plans and hurt people the best that you can do is focus on making any such event as short as possible, and minimizing the overall damage. It would be so much better if those bad guys would just follow the laws we already have in place today...
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdave View Post
    The trend is for these folks is to shoot themselves at the arrival of armed response I'd rather that was sooner than later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Clearly I won't convince you, so I will refer you to what the head instructor of the active shooter training I received has to say on it:
    News ? Tactical Defense Institute - Tactical, Firearms Training, pistol, rifle, shotgun
    Quote Originally Posted by grbr View Post
    Zero deaths other than the shooter seems like a pretty good stop to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure armed guards won't stop everything, but using a situation where there were zero innocent deaths that was stopped early by an armed guard as having "demonstrated" that it won't stop them...that's a bit odd, don't ya think?

    In my eyes it was clearly demonstrated that while an armed guard is not a guarantee, it as a dang good idea that may save a lot of lives even if it doesn't manage to save all (though in this case it did...I personally don't consider the life of the shooter as valuable enough to count, sorry). It's definitely a great start.
    While good points all, it's easy to assume the wacko killed himself because of the school resource officer responding (very feel-good assumption), and I might agree if the officer had taken him out, but none of us will ever know why he killed himself instead of shooting more people and/or the officer. He nay have been simply frustrated that the original target escaped him. Who knows?

    As for no one killed, there's a lot of luck in play and the girl is still in deep trouble and if lives will probably remain so for a long time if not forever.

    Will having armed security "stop" mass killings? I doubt it. Will they lower the body count? I would hope so. But to accept the "See, see! Having armed security worked" attitude is too easy. Maybe--just maybe--this one time. The next wacko may have an entirely different agenda and may decide anyone and everyone is his target, not just a single teacher. And I'm not sure the two persons shot would agree the shooter was stopped in time either.
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    I think the reason for the suicide in this most recent case is undetermined. Statistically these dirt bags off themselves at the first sign of effective resistance. But in this case there is reason to believe that this was not at typical incident with a high body count as the goal. There have been statements that support the idea that this was actually done with a specific target. This target worked in the library. The unanswered question is did the shooter off himself because the resource officer was closing in or because he got to the library and discovered his target was not there?
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    I keep hearing that the goal here was not a high body count. However if the shooter only intended to take out one person why the load of ammo and Molotov cocktails?
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    His goal was to kill unarmed victims. Who cares if the plan was one, or one hundred? It would appear the only one he shot wasn't even known to him, yet he shot her in the face point-blank.
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    VIP Member Array tdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    His goal was to kill unarmed victims. Who cares if the plan was one, or one hundred? It would appear the only one he shot wasn't even known to him, yet he shot her in the face point-blank.
    I understand your sentiment and few would argue that it was a vicious little waste we are better off without. It simply seems that since an armed response seemed to work in this instance that some wish to portray this as other than it was. OldVet or any other forum member I am not accusing you of doing this. I take your differing opinions as simply that.
    Last edited by tdave; December 17th, 2013 at 04:29 PM. Reason: clarity
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