Building clearing (the flashlight thread continued)

Building clearing (the flashlight thread continued)

This is a discussion on Building clearing (the flashlight thread continued) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This is an off shoot to the flashlight thread. That thread was getting into a interesting discussion on the theorys of building clearing. Here is ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 41

Thread: Building clearing (the flashlight thread continued)

  1. #1
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,988

    Building clearing (the flashlight thread continued)

    This is an off shoot to the flashlight thread. That thread was getting into a interesting discussion on the theorys of building clearing.

    Here is a quote from the other thread to get things going...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    FWIW, some dogma from Gunsite and Blackwater - you'll see why I picked these two. Both are for solo entry except where noted.

    First Gunsite:
    Gunsite teaches pieing, period, and discuss their reasons why that's their choice. But, for a two person entry, Gunsite teaches both the 'hook' and 'cross' ('X') methods.

    Blackwater:
    Blackwater teaches a 'rush' method and strongly discourages pieing a doorway, IF you have to open a door to enter, otherwise you pie.

    Their logic is interesting and I discussed this with them a bit. Here's their take on the problem: If you have to open a door, you have to assume that you just gave your position away. That seems like a good assumption to me. Contrary to popular perception, doors and door frames are more concealment than cover. Therefore the less time you spend in and around them, the better off you are. Under the assumption that the BG knows you are in or around the door, esp. if you've begun pieing the doorway after opening the door, he can shoot through the door, door facing, and/or walls around the door. You're essentially a stationary target and although you're behind concealment, the BG knows about where you are and you're likely gonna get hit.

    Blackwater cont'd - the 'burst' or 'rush' method.
    First an explanation of the method. Based on the construction of the structure, door, and as much intel as you can gather via windows, familiarity, etc., you choose a direction, left or right that you will enter by. The idea is you burst open the door, move quickly through the door and doorway, well out of the doorway (that fatal funnel area SIXTO alluded to), travelling along the inside wall. So you're not bursting into the middle of the room, but along a wall. If there's a threat in front of you, you shoot, or not, as necessary. If no threat, you immediately pivot to your 'six', gun and all, checking for threats all the way. Generally you want to enter so that when the door opens, it will be to your rear, so that it can at least provide some concealment to your 'six'.

    I commented that that sounds like a good way to get shot. The instructor said that was right, but it's better than being a stationary target in a known position. A moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one.

    We used the techinque to do an entry. Right now, that's my preferred method, barring extenuating circumstances. Just to be clear, if you don't have to open a door, they teach pieing.

    Let me make a couple of statements about 'clearing'.

    1- Don't - unless it is absolutely necessary to protect life. There are traps and snafus everywhere, before, during, and after you start. Threat fixation or threat area fixation, inadvertently backlighting yourself, turning your back on an uncleared area in order to check another area, confronting a threat while his buddy moves in behind you, just to name a few.

    Clearing a room/house/whatever without training is a death wish. The only reason a civie/homeowner should even think of clearing anything is that a loved one is in imminent danger.

    2- Clearing a room solo with training is extremely dangerous - again don't do it unless it is absolutely necessary to protect life.

    3- Clearing a room as a two person team is extremely dangerous and requires specialized training.

    4- Don't substitute 'reading up' on the subject or watching videos for actual formal training. This is one area, that there is no substitute for 'hands on training'.
    "Just blame Sixto"


  2. #2
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    My thinking on house clearing has been based on putting myself in the position of a bad guy!!

    Most thoughts on that theme have led me to believe I am way ahead of the game - and could be all but guaranteed a ''kill'' if only facing the average Joe Blow - then make quick exit.

    I am not even sure I would have the cojones to even try on my own - and that's being dead on honest. I would not even envy trained folks that job.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #3
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,988
    Heres why I say slice the pie when entering a doorway, when alone or you have no other reason to use a dynamic method...

    Alone, there is no way a single person can cover the entire room by themselves. If you rush in, you will be leaving at least two corners uncovered. If the BG has any smarts at all, he will be hiding in one of the corners on the same wall as the door. You simply cannot cover both.
    The statement that a door jam is not cover is 100% correct; but it is against human nature to shoot at a wall to get to someone on the otherside. Not many non trained people will do that. With slicing the pie, I dont have to enter the room all the time. Remember, once in a room, you have to exit too. Now your hallway is unsecure!

    Now if I have a GOOD partner, I will opt for the double J or a cross pattern depending on the room. Two people can cover all corners of the a room, or I will have my partner cover the 1 and 2 corner from the hallway, and I will enter to search the room alone. Dont forget to always cover your hallway!
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #4
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,988
    Nothing? Nobody?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #5
    Member Array pistola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Opossum Hollow
    Posts
    487

    Wink No Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Nothing? Nobody?
    I want no part of it unless I have some M29 frag grenedes,(break)and that's after I've called in a ten digit grid fire mission.(over)

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,134
    House clearing well .... DONT DO IT ! clear only your lines to your family and from the last stop there , the exit or saferoom . What you cannot avoid clearing then slice the pie.
    If you have to open a door do it quick , and step back .
    Wait a bit , listen , then re approch the opening , and pie it out. It cannot be stressed enough how dangrous it is to do building searches and how un equiped ( with a skill set ) your average person is to do it . Do what you have to to get your family safe , then quit. I used to train officers on this skilset , but would not attempt it for myself anymore i am out of practice and would most likely end up bleeding out on the floor .

    Edited to add ( to keep it on topic ) I wont even discuss my outdated thoughts on light usage , If you're serious enough about doing this to be concerned then advance thro a reputable school such as lfi or gunsight to the point the guys who are current train you hands on , internet info will truely kill you on this issue .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  7. #7
    Moderator
    Array buckeye .45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    7,684
    Seeing as how I have exremely little training in this (It was once covered briefly when I was in NROTC), I feel that my best option is waiting in my room behind the best cover I can find with a shotgun and call the cops (only one roommate in my current status, and he is on a different floor). In my apartment there is a pentagon "hallway", with stairs on one side, two of the other rooms have doors, and the other two sides are open. I couldn't even fathom how to clear that, hence, it is better left to professionals.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  8. #8
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,713
    I think most posters are right on - don't clear unless you have to, pie if you can. If you're talking specific tactics for dynamic entry and room clearing, that's another story. Most of my training has been military and law enforcement team tactics, so it doesn't translate too well to the lone homeowner... And even after all my training (and real world experience) I'd still be very wary of entering any room that I didn't absolutely have to...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    688
    get a dog.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Good rules all. I learned some different rules at IOBC (Infantry Officer Basic Course). First always clear from the top down. That means if you're clearing anything more than one story, start on the roof and force the enemy down so they have a way (they think) out of harms way. You can have a separate ambush on the street if you like. Second, if at all possible never enter a room via the door. Much preferable to blow a hole in the wall next to the door. Anybody ever see a movie about the SAS called The Final Option? Great movie about terrorism in the UK. Illustrates this point very well. I highly recommend it for rental. However, if you MUST use a door, always toss in a cooked off GRENADE before you enter. These factors (and training) is what keeps me from any house clearing activities.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #11
    Member Array BlueMerle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fort Worth Tx. or On a Ship!
    Posts
    222
    I'm sure this is just a "me too" but it's the way I feel about it.

    If you want to have a light or laser or whatever on your gun, thats your choice. For me, no thanks.

    I believe that if I'm in my house I won't need a light and if I'm not I don't want to give anyone a clear target. That's me, your entitled to your opinion. I'd rather they didn't see me if at all possible.

    Given a choice I never buy a hand gun with a rail. Since I'm not special ops or LEO, I don't see the need. Even if I was I probably wouldn't turn the dang thing on anyways.

  12. #12
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,988
    My goodness, I was talking about some basic techniques and skills for a problem that folks may encounter. I didnt mean for it to go to talk of grenades, explosive breech etc!

    I will second the post on getting a dog... even a foo foo ankle biter can help you out.

    The basics of building clearing can help you out if you ever have to move through your home or any other building to get to safety, find your children or to get to a rifle. Thats why I wanted to get this thread going.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #13
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    16,072
    Pieing the room seems like the best way for loner, IMO. I have body armor handy too. So rounds thru a wall/doorjam might stop better if they do hit the vest.
    Strobing witht he light will confuse intruders , just be sure to move after lighting up. Luckily my house is small and I only have 1 doorway to clear till i get a view of the kids rooms.
    The kids know to lay under the bed till I come get em.
    Finally , having a 4 legged alarm helps alot. she is trained to back at the first sound on the front porch or back deck.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  14. #14
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Ok, I'll bite. As I indicated in my post in the 'flashlights' thread, and copied here in SIXTOs opening post, there are literally two schools of thought on solo clearing and negotiating an entry through a doorway.

    Opening a door complicates the issue significantly. You have to respond to which way the door opens, in or out, left or right and if there is a reason to open the door differently than 'accepted practices'. That is, all else being equal, and there's an assumtive statement if there ever was one, on doors that open inward, it seems universal that you want to open the door with you standing on the hinge side rather than the knob side. The reason for this is that if you stand on the knob side of the door, you have little control of the door and your arm is gonna extend inside the doorway.

    So far every school I've been to agrees on this much. So you twist the door knob, push the door open as far as it will go while retreating to gain distance from the doorway so you can begin your pieing. Hopefully the door will swing all the way open and not stop short or "bottom out" and bounce back. And heaven help if it's got a door closer on it, but most residentials don't.

    All the area that can be pied, is pied keeping a good distance from the doorway. The ole 'distance is your friend'. Once you've pied, I think the real problem begins - how do you enter? And, here's the crux of the pie and entry problem. Unless you never loose sight of the entire area you've pied, things may change since you saw it. It is impossible to be able to see everywhere and keep every thing in sight as you pie. So here's the problem. The first thing you pied, may change before you finish pieing. For example, you the first thing you see is an interior doorway or a hallway. Just because you didn't detect anything there when you pied, doesn't mean that the BG(s) didn't detect you and move into place. They know where you are and where your gonna be. Here's where the rush through comes into play.

    But first let's look at the pie-in method. You've pied everything you can and it was clear, so now you need to enter. You can stay to one side of the doorway with your gun in a retention position, and I hate retention positions and retention shooting, but that's another subject, and kinda pie your way around the doorway re-checking for threats. Here's my problem with that. If 'they' know you're there, and you almost have to assume they do, there you are in a location known to the BGs slowly working a doorway. You're a sittin' duck - you're not only in a known location working slowly around a doorway with your gun in about the most awkward and inaccurate position for shooting you could have it, but you are likely back lit by the doorway.

    The other entry approach is bold and is not without it's own set of problems but at least your gun is in a much better position for getting quick accurate shots off, you're a 'fast mover', your location is constantly changing (until you stop that is) and you don't get back lit unless you pass a window, etc.

    In this method, after you have completed you initial pie of as much of the area as you can, You rush through the doorway at an acute angle moving along but not touching the inside wall. This is important, GET AWAY FROM THE DOORWAY AND DON’T PASS IN FRONT OF OR STOP IN FRONT OF A WINDOW THAT COULD BACK LIGHT YOU.

    Ok, let’s say you see a BG in front of you what do you do? Well first you step laterally to make him react to you while you are reacting to him, but hopefully now, you are the actor and he is the reactor. You come in with your gun in an ideal position for shooting, just bring it up, put the front sight on the available COM, and press – preferably 2 or 3 times. KEEP MOVING, there could be more threats and they for sure know where you are now. Don’t give them a stationary target. MOVEMENT AND DISTANCE ARE YOUR FRIEND; so is cover, but there’s not likely gonna be any.

    Let’s pause here for a moment. The typical response to this tactic is that you have to turn your back on a threat – that’s true, but there’s no way you’re gonna get through a doorway without turning your back on a threat. HAS ANYONE MENTIONED THAT CLEARING IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS?. You can work your way around a doorway as slowly as you want to, but in order to clear that last little bit of the corner, you’re gonna have to poke your head in to see the last little bit of the corner. You just turned your back to an uncleared threat area, and you were essentially stationary when you did it! Now suppose you see a threat an you need to shoot it without delay. While you’re shooting one BG, the BG behind you has this nice big, stationary target. Feeling a little lonely? You bet ya!

    Another response is “That’s why I do a peek first.” What they mean is they do the Hollywood thing and take a quick peek and get back before the BG can react. Well, now the BG knows for sure where you are and guess what else he knows? You’re comin’ back! The ole ambush. Remember, you’ve only peeked one side, now you have to peek the other side, and guess who’s gonna be ready this time? The next argument for the peek is, “Yeah but I do a high and low peek.” That means one time you peak high and the next time you crouch down and peek low. You just lost a bunch of mobility and response speed.

    Even if you’re fast enough to not get shot during the peek(s), you’ve given your position away, and remember our discussion in the cover and concealment thread? You ain’t behind cover! If the BG(s) decide to shoot through the walls, there’s a good chance you’re gonna get shot. And you’re basically a stationary target. The same thing is true when you’re pieing, they can shoot through the walls. HAS ANYONE MENTIONED THAT CLEARING IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS?

    But, the rush method isn’t perfect either. You do have to turn your back on an uncleared threat area. But, you are moving, movement is your friend, and about the only one you’ve got in this situation, and you are moving away from the threat area – distance is your friend. On a good day, you can enter such that the door is at 90 degrees to its closed position and it can give you some concealment and if nothing else be in the BGs way, so he has to reposition himself. You gain some time.

    So we’ve rushed through the doorway and moved away from it, we have no threat in front of us so what to do next. CHECK YOUR SIX and MOVE while you do it. The last thing you want is to present a stationary target.

    It kinda goes downhill from there. You’re in a room with possible BGs in unknown locations, you likely have no cover, you have no one to watch your back, you’ve got all kinds of possible threat areas to clear, and you’ve probably stopped to figure out what to do next, and there you are a stationary target again.

    Now you wanna know why I hate retention positions and retention shooting?

  15. #15
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    I wann hit, make that re-hit, one more time, the flashlight thing, esp. since it strongly relates to clearing.

    Some opine that no light is better than a light because the light gives you a way and gives the BG something to shoot at. Also, some feel that there's enough light in familiar settings for them to see the BG. Well if you can see him, he can see you. He can see you well enough to shoot you, just as you can see him well enough to shoot him.

    But it's not even. A BG doesn't have to worry about where his bullet goes, he can empty his gun toward you. You, OTOH, may not have that luxury and even night sights may not help.

    Here's a scenario I had a Gunsite, I'll explain the pertinence to the flashlight thing afterwards. I was alone in a mountain cabin. I hear this racket and peek out to investigate and it's a guy with a shotgun. Unfortunately he sees me. I slam the door and retreat to concealment and hold my breath - oh we're using Simunitions ammo. He is quickly outside my door demanding I open the door and give him money or he's gonna kill me. Then there's a lull and he yells again. Then he burst through the door and the gunfight's on. I've positioned myself where it's very awkward for him to locate and shoot at me. In the mean time, I've hit him about five times, although I could not tell where the hits went. He hit me on the forearm. When we assessed, all my shots were COM. But here's the pertinent point. In the debriefing, the instructors said, "You knew he was armed, you knew he represented a deadly threat. You would have been justified to shoot through the door, why didn't you? Why did you let him come in before you shot?" I said, "Because I had lost visual on him; for all I knew he had grabbed a woman as a shield and if I shot through the door...."

    OK here's how this applies to flashlights. Without a light, we are at the mercy of available room lighting and we likely cannot accurately shoot nor assess the true situation. Just like I had to wait to be sure I had a clear shot in the simulator, one must be sure in the dark as well. Good light is about the only way to do that. Assuming the incident takes place in the dark, or the flashlight almost becomes irrelevent, notice I said almost, but in the dark, details are are to see and a flashlight becomes a critical tool. What if the BG has one of your children in front of him? How do you know he doesnt'? Can you make the shot in the dark? I wouldn't want to. What if he is behind a book case and you have only a very small target? Can you see in the dark to make the shot without light? I doubt it. At best you are on equal ground with the BG.

    The light will produce a reaction. A light in someones eyes that have adapted to the dark will cause some kind of reaction which buys us a little time. It's not as easy to find your target as we might think, with a blinding light in our eyes. Plus, he's lit up with his vision impared and you're not lit up and have a good shoot picture.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. House Clearing Thread -- Further Thoughts
    By AFVet1982 in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: July 18th, 2009, 01:31 AM
  2. Building clearing and you....
    By A1C Lickey in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: June 10th, 2007, 09:27 PM
  3. MS-13 continued
    By Free American in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: February 1st, 2006, 06:31 PM

Search tags for this page

building clearing law enforcement
,
clearing with flashlight
,
define fatal funnel in building searches
,

flashlight clearing techniques

,
flashlight use when clearing a building
,
house clearing flashlight
,
law enforcement building clearing techniques
,
pieing the room
,
room clearing flashlight
,
room clearing with flashlights
,
two persons building clearing
Click on a term to search for related topics.