The exception that proves the rule...

This is a discussion on The exception that proves the rule... within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Mods - please move this if you feel that an LEO shooting belongs under another heading. This is a partial reproduction of a 2003 entry ...

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Thread: The exception that proves the rule...

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    The exception that proves the rule...

    Mods - please move this if you feel that an LEO shooting belongs under another heading.

    This is a partial reproduction of a 2003 entry into "John Farnam's Quips and Quotes," and many of you may have already read it, but I thought in interesting in light of some of the discussions the board has been having regarding the SLC mall shooting, the necessity of extra mags/speed loaders, et cetera.

    11 Oct 03

    "My young partner (two weeks out of the academy) and I responded to a domestic call. A man had accused his wife/live-in of hiding his drug supply (crack cocaine) from him. He subsequently became angry and threatened her with a pistol (Bryco 9mm, bright-chrome plated). The call to 911 was made by the woman. The offender, upon discovering that his wife had called the police, said that he would 'have a little surprise for them (responding police officers) when they arrived.' He then went outside and waited for us.

    He didn't have to wait long! The two of us arrived, parked one house away, and approached the house in question on foot. We saw the suspect standing near the sidewalk, but it was a warm evening, and there were many other people walking about, as well as a good deal of traffic. However, the offender's stance (his hands were not visible) made me particularly suspicions of him. I said to my partner, 'See the way that guy is standing? That may be our suspect.'

    He waited for us to get within twenty feet. We were commanding him to move slowly and show us his hands. Without saying a word, he brought up the Bryco pistol and pointed it directly me. I responded by lurching to the side and simultaneously drawing my SIG P220 (my hand was already on it). As soon as I found my front sight on his body midline, I fired several rounds (230gr Gold Dot). I could see his shirt convulsing, so I knew I was hitting him.

    He stumbled backward, but stayed on his feet and did not drop the gun. I could see him frantically yanking on the trigger of his shiny pistol. He wa s trying desperately to shoot me. I fired several more rounds, again into the body midline. By this time, my partner was also firing (9mm, 147gr WW). The suspect fell backward onto his fanny and then fell the rest of the way, hitt ing the back of his head on the ground. However, he still had not dropped his pistol.

    Then, he sat back up and pointed his pistol at us once more! I knew I couldn't have more than one or two rounds left in my magazine, so I put my front sight on his head and fired what turned out to be my last two rounds (shooting him in the pelvis would have been pointless, as he was already sitting). One round hit him in the throat, and the other hit him in the eye. That did it! He finally dropped the pistol and fell back down, DRT.

    I reloaded, but have no memory of it. My partner commented on my fast reload. When he made his comments, I didn't even realize that I had reloaded .

    Of nine shots I fired, seven struck the suspect. Of the seven that hit, two , fully expanded, still went through and through. The rest stayed in the body .

    As it turns out, the suspect never fired a round. His pistol had a fully charged magazine inserted, but there was no round in the chamber. Either th rough ignorance or carelessness, he had not loaded his pistol. He brought a club t o a gunfight. Shame on him. He won't have the opportunity to make that mistake again!"
    Obviously, this is an LEO shooting and not entirely applicable to CCW holders, however, I feel there are some good points brought up. This BG took five(!) .45 caliber 230gr Gold Dot rounds to the torso (and possibly some 9mm 147gr hits as well) from around 20 feet, and was still in the fight. Had the engaging officer not been able to put two rounds into the BGs head/neck, we would have found himself out of ammo with the BG still pointing a gun at him. Had he been carrying a revolver or 7 round capacity auto, he would have had to reload prior to making those finishing shots.

    This is not intended to start (or rekindle) any caliber/capacity arguments, it is simply a reminder that simply because most shootings occur within 10 feet and most exchanges are of fewer than 6 rounds, doesn't mean that they all are. We all carry because we want to be prepared for an admittedly unlikely scenario - I think we should all be willing to consider how unlikely is too unlikely when we choose our ammo load.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Member Array Schwebel's Avatar
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    Yea that's one thing I'm guilty of, not carrying any extra mags. I just haven't found a comfortable concealable way of packing an extra mag. While 11 rounds of .45 auto is plenty for the statistics, ya just never know. I do carry a speedstrip when I wear my .38, but I might start carrying 2 strips now.

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    Even a .45 is still just a pistol and pistols are wimpy compared to even mild rifles such as a .30-30. CNS hits are what count the most with handguns. Btw, it looks like 7 hits from the .45 and no mention of 9mm hits.

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    6+1, 10+1, or 13+1...

    Is not really the point here, but rather when/if there is a jam/blockage, can you drop the old mag, clear the blockage and reload?

    The problem could happen with the first shot out of 12...then what?

    OMO

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    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    good point. It seems every time I start to forget that 2-3 rounds isn't always enough to stop someone, a story like this pops up. It's amazing how resilient the human body can be, despite its frailties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Is not really the point here, but rather when/if there is a jam/blockage, can you drop the old mag, clear the blockage and reload?

    The problem could happen with the first shot out of 12...then what?

    OMO

    Stay armed...stay safe!

    ret
    That's why I practice malfunction drills during every practice session.

    Snap-caps help with failure to fire. Other methods are good as well, you can setup for failure to eject., or stovepipe jams. These get you used to dealing quickly with failures. You can utilize a shooting partner to aid you with the setups, so they are more of a surprise when they occur.

    This is one requirement that you should look for when seeking professional training. Find instructors or schools (Front Sight, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater...etc...) that teach malfunction drills as part of their curriculum.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

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    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    This further proves the 'one shot stop' fallacy. If this BG had one in the chamber, this would have turned out badly!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

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    Member Array Bob F.'s Avatar
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    I have a box of reloads (start low, work up!?) that don't quite cycle the slide. Mixed in with my practice ammo they're good for malf drills.
    Another advantage of reloading.

    Bob

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    Member Array top_gizmo's Avatar
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    I guess this answers my previous question on whether you really needed an extra magazine...
    Semper Fi!

    Engineers Up!

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    Snap caps are great for FTF execises. Also putting a bit of tape on the tip helps induce a jam, for more training senarios.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    The guy was agitated, and possibly on drugs or suffering from withdrawal, thus his anger at his girlfriend hiding his stash.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the mental and physical state of the person make all the difference in the world.

    Since its very possible that a concealed pistol carrier might find themselves in a situation where the badguy has an altered state of mind, this needs to be a consideration when choosing a firearm and the caliber.


    As a Deputy if I even THINK that someone in a domestic has a gun I'll have my Sig in hand before I walk up to them, not after...
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    Senior Member Array palmgopher's Avatar
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    no matter how many times you hear it it still amazes me how much damage the human body can take and keep functioning for even a short period of time. as stated cns shots are the only guaranteed stoppers. head shot about the ONLY one shot instant stop but even then you still need to make a center mass shot on the head. just amazing. we are so frail as stated earlier but still so darn hard to kill =o)

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    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    not that it really matters, but that guy was dead after the first 5 shots.

    the drugs were just slowing down that message to his brain... those last two shots were Federal Express messengers...

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    Member Array Harold Green's Avatar
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    When we started running simulations of defensive shooting scenarios in our local shooting group, I found I was running out of ammo before I was running out of threats more often than was comfortable. This happened even more when we started using our home made, vinyl, reactive targets that soak up multiple rounds before going down.

    The simulations we run are a bit different than IDPA or IPSC courses of fire. The setup is randomized for each shooter out of his line of sight, and they are focused on use of tactics and thinking on your feet rather than on following a choreographed sequence of movements and delivering a predetermined number of rounds per target.

    In response to what I found out by shooting these simulations, I went from a compact 1911 to a full-sized gun, and from one reload to at least two. My minimum ammo load is now 25 rounds.

    After I made this switch I discovered a very interesting thing. For me, itís no more trouble to carry a larger gun and more ammo than it was to carry a smaller gun and less ammo. I know this wonít be the case for a lot of other folks, but it is for me.
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill

    "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber

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    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    I agree with the comment about always carrying a spare mag. 70% of issues with semi-autos malfunctioning is due to magazine issues. If your mag takes today to decide not to play nice and its the only one you got, now what. Went on a call with another officer in a very similar situation as the story, and when we drew out weapons, his magasine base plate popped off and out dumped 8 rounds of 45 onto the front yard. Fortunatly the BG had a ball bat and decided to drop it, but I think my partner was more shocked than if he'd have been shot. Now those wernt cheap mags, they were high quality Wilsons. Just was the day Murphy decided to play one of his tricks.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

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