LEOSA

This is a discussion on LEOSA within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I need some help and opinions. I will take what I learn here to an attorney to verify and get a "legal" opinion. The reason ...

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Thread: LEOSA

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    LEOSA

    I need some help and opinions. I will take what I learn here to an attorney to verify and get a "legal" opinion. The reason I want some help is to be better "armed" for the decision I'm hoping to receive after paying him/her my money.

    I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and I'm under the Federal Law Enforcement Retirement System. I also have to qualify annually with firearms. According to LEOSA, where can I be restricted by a State or other government agency from carrying when off-duty?

    The reason I bring this up is, in my State, Concealed Weapon Permit holders cannot carry in a place that sells alcohol for consumption on the premises. This means that it is illegal for me to carry in a restaurant like Outback, Applebee's or other place that makes most of it's money off food and not alcohol.

    I've talked with other personnel and they all state that they carry under their CCW's, but carry also when on vacation in States like CA; where they can't even get a permit to carry a concealed weapon as a "non-resident".

    There is a lot of misinformation out there and I'm just trying to get an idea of what is/isn't allowed before going to a lawyer and settleing this matter for sure. Also, if you ask two lawyers the same question you will get two different answers.

    Thanks in advance for the help.

    Biker

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  3. #2
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    Array nn's Avatar
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    Research NRA and Handgunlaw.com. Also check applicable state attorney general/state police web sites. The info you want will be there.

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    Member Array Eirerogue's Avatar
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    There is some additional clarification language for the LEOSA that is currently before Congress. Check it out.

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    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    According to LEOSA, where can I be restricted by a State or other government agency from carrying when off-duty?
    It's explained right at the beginning of LEOSA:
    "(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--
    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or
    restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property;
    or
    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park."

    Clearly, by (2) the state cannot prohibit you from carrying into Applebees, Outback, etc. None of those places are government properties, installations, buildings, bases, or parks. By the exact wording of LEOSA those are the only places the state may prohibit qualified LEOs from carrying.
    LEOSA supersedes all state laws except for those specifically listed places.
    "(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof,...."
    Section (a) specifically exempts qualified LEOs/retired LEOs from the "law of any state or any political subdivision", except for those specific places in (b) quoted above.
    Only Applebees, Outback, etc can prohibit you under LEOSA (1) above as they are a private entity. As long as Applebees, Outback, etc do not specifically prohibit it then the only thing that will stop you is hammering down enough drinks to where you don't comply with: "(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance;"

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    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    hmm, im no lawyer, but i read that differently:

    (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that-- - i take that to mean these rules do not supersede, IE override, State laws


    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or
    restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property;
    or
    - so they dont override state laws that permit establishments not owned by the state or otherwise the public, IE private persons or entities (like, say, Applebee's or other, right?). soooo, unless you ask permission from said establishment, and it being a franchise, that permission would haveta come from up the chain of management, i dont think making the assumption you HAVE the permission is, well, permissible...

    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park."
    blah blah irrelevant

    i'd think a lawyer would have a field day if you had to use your firearm, or even if you just hadta explain because some pesky sheeple called after making you, and you basically said you were operating under the assumption they hadnt explicitly prohibited you from carrying in a situation blatantly converse to law. at minimum, i can imagine you could expect to explain why you made such assumptions to a judge.

    if you're gonna say the LEOSA and specifically, that clause, allows concealed carry in applebees, then your interpretation also allows a retired officer to carry concealed into a school, church, etc. without permission and, well, that just doesnt fly in the states im familiar with, that im aware of, regardless of HR218.

    here, the faq on AZ's page sums it up nicely:

    7. Can a person carrying pursuant to LEOSA carry a concealed firearm into a place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises?

    If the business is posted “No Firearms or Weapons” (or something similar), the person may NOT enter with a firearm (see question 6 above). If the business is not posted, a person carrying under LEOSA may enter with the firearm, however, the person is prohibited from consuming alcohol. How this law applies to active law enforcement officers will vary from state to state; contact that state for details. In Arizona, active peace officers may carry in on-sale liquor establishments.

  7. #6
    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    I was involved in quite a bit of research involving LEOSA prior to and after signing. It was of particular interest since IL does not have CCW for anyone other than active LEOs. We talked to those writing and sponsoring the bill, US AG, and the IL AG for opinions. That research is what I based my post on. I'm not a lawyer either but I sure did talk to enough of them when LEOSA was implemented.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briansmech View Post
    hmm, im no lawyer, but i read that differently:(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or
    restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property;
    or
    - so they dont override state laws that permit establishments not owned by the state or otherwise the public, IE private persons or entities (like, say, Applebee's or other, right?). soooo, unless you ask permission from said establishment, and it being a franchise, that permission would haveta come from up the chain of management, i dont think making the assumption you HAVE the permission is, well, permissible...
    I would only add that an investor that invests into a franchise operation is the "owner" of said premises. There are rules made by the franchise seller that the investor must follow as contained in the franchise license that govern appearance of the restaurant, general operating guidelines, supply chain agreements etc. But outside of those constraints, it is at the discretion of each franchise owner to decide whether to allow guns on the property they own, or anything else for that matter.

    Assuming that by "come up from the chain of management" you are kinda-sorta referring to some sort of corporate hierarchy that makes the strategic decisions for the organization, there is no "corporate" policy for franchises, because the franchise is not owned by the parent corporation. It is owned by the investor, whether they be an individual, a group of individuals, or another company.
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. Keep them coming if you can. The more interpretations I have, the better.

    I'm still confused.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    Assuming that by "come up from the chain of management" you are kinda-sorta referring to some sort of corporate hierarchy that makes the strategic decisions for the organization, there is no "corporate" policy for franchises, because the franchise is not owned by the parent corporation. It is owned by the investor, whether they be an individual, a group of individuals, or another company.
    im not even a corporate lawyer :(

    however, i'd imagine even franchise owners have to follow rules. i can imagine franchises have to make alot of standardized rules, and carrying would be covered by SOME policy, but i'm nowhere near that versed in big business...

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