Defensive Carry banner

Soldiers who dont understand basics of shooting?

3K views 61 replies 47 participants last post by  Rhinoman 
#1 ·
Im a subscriber to Nutnfancy. Have been for years. I really like him, his system philosophies, and his personality. He just uploaded this video, where he met some random ARMY soldiers at the range, a couple young guys. Three of the four are military, and of the three, one is actually a veteran who has already done his service. During the few minutes of this video, I have to say... Its terrifying that these soldiers (one even a veteran) dont have the slightest clue when it comes to shooting fundamentals or the operation of a rifle.

The first shooter, a veteran, doesnt know how to properly shoulder a rifle, insert a magazine into a standard issue rifle, or that you even need to chamber a round after putting a magazine in. Then when he fires a round, it looks like he jumps a mile. Another guy in the background gets surprised by the shot he was expecting to go off and yells out "wow!" The second shooter is clearly VERY uncomfortable with a gun. He gets down on the rifle, and just holds his left hand in the air near his chin, instead of steadying his rifle. He doesnt understand how to even hold a rifle. Also, absolutely zero understanding of trigger control and how it turns into shots on target. It looks like he could try to hit the trigger with a baseball bat and have a smoother trigger press.

I am severely disappointed. I am not a solider, but I have at minimum a solid understanding of most firearm types and the fundamentals of shooting. If these guys were even in a relatively low-stress training session, they wouldnt know where to begin. If any of them had a malfunction, forget about it. They wouldnt not have the slightest clue as to what happened or how to fix it. Im not expecting everybody who goes into the military to come out like some sort of high-speed clandestine operator, but Id expect that even BEFORE going in, they would know and be able to execute the fundamentals and have a basic working understanding of how to load, shoulder, and shoot a rifle. It seems like you have to start these guys at "This is a bullet. It is what the gun shoots. This is a barrel, it is the part the bullet goes through. This is a trigger, it is what you need to press to fire a bullet.". And especially the one guy who has served and is a veteran not even knowing the most basic operation...

As an American, I can can say that it does not make me sleep easy at night seeing stuff like this. I went to high school and college with some people who joined different branches of the military, and even after a couple years in, we would be discussing and handling pistols and rifles, or even shooting, and they were exactly the same as these guys. I had to remind them how to chamber a round or release the bolt on my AR15, and how to properly grip a pistol (one even did the pistol grip where he holds his firing hand properly, but then put his off-hand thumb across the thumb joint of his firing hand, so his thumb ended up directly where the slide would travel). I figured a few of these people werent the brightest in high school, or after, so nothing really surprised me there. But to see it again, with randomly chosen ARMY soldiers? Is this normal? Im honestly blown away after seeing this.

 
See less See more
#2 ·
I had a gun shop buddy several years back. I ended up buying a couple milsurps off him and he did me a favor and picked up some HXP M1 ball ammo for me.
Air Force guy. Did time in Vietnam. I was told.
We went shooting one day. More so him to try out the Colt SP-1 he had just gotten that was similar to the AR-15 he used in Vietnam.
Didn't know how to load the magazine.

I don't know. Maybe all ammo is issued already in magazines and you never had to push a cartridge into one the whole time you are there, but I was surprised to say the least.
 
#3 ·
I don't know. Maybe all ammo is issued already in magazines and you never had to push a cartridge into one the whole time you are there, but I was surprised to say the least.
Can't say for all branches and specialties. I was military intelligence (no jokes, please), and my units were capable of firing marksman (or better), performing remedial action drills, display proper safety measures, and we all loaded our own magazines from first to last.

Rarely were magazines pre-loaded, and they were only loaded by temporary range personnel just to keep the range moving. And these temp personnel were always provided by soldiers in our own unit, not the weapons instructor cadre.

And this was true, regardless of my duty station. Basic Training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. Two duty stations in Korea, as well as a full tour in the 25th Infantry Division in Hawaii.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PAcanis
#4 ·
Yeah, you would think if they are going to teach you to disassemble your weapon and put it back together, they would teach you how to load a magazine.
But I wasn't in the service, so I'm just spit balling here.
 
#5 ·
I am not sure what to say.

Even in Army support units, minimum annual rifle qualification is mandatory. The "anywhere, anytime" nature of the past decade's conflicts has reinforced the concept that your personal weapon may be needed fo save your life.
 
#7 ·
For some military jobs, handling a rifle is a daily thing.

For others, not so much. Please note, I am not passing judgement with this statement, just making an observation.

I do believe however, that in general you will find higher proficiency with service issued weapons in the combat arms, particularly the infantry where a firearm is the primary weapon, compared to support staff roles like administration and refrigeration mechanics.

Being in the military or a veteran, does not automatically make someone an expert on how to use firearms.
 
#40 ·
Is this what happens when you don't alow guns on bases, along with not allowing them to train properly??
Or is lack of proper training the reason guns aren't allowed on bases?

ETA: Looks like they had fun, not sure I could have shot better.
 
#12 ·
I shot a story during gulf war 1 on some Air Force people deploying new software. These were folks who didn't travel outside the wire. Without exception none of the 5 guys I followed none had held an M-16 since basic training. (Several had been in 5-10 years). That being said I felt very secure with our Army provided security detail.
 
#14 ·
Some military people qualify once in basic training and never handle a handheld weapon again during their career. I was in the Navy and spent time in Viet Nam on boats so I am familiar with handguns and rifles. I went through Marine Advanced Infantry Training at Camp Pendleton. Other sailors may never handle a handgun or rifle after basic training, but shoot naval guns, load bombs on aircraft, or load missiles. In the Navy, the ship or the aircraft is the weapon. In the Army, I had to qualify every year with an M-16 and a sidearm. When I was in the military from 1963 to 1985, the rifle ammo came on stripper clips.
 
#15 ·
When I was in the military from 1963 to 1985, the rifle ammo came on stripper clips.
As late as 2003, they still came on stripper clips occasionally. On the range, about half the time, I would get it in stripper clips with speed loaders. Other times, it was simply boxed and I did a pure hand load of the magazine.
 
#18 ·
After Volar Army started Was a mess. We didn't have ammo to go to range at all I set in day room with my people and we qualified expert and sharpshooter on paper and turned in. . We could supply 1/2 company 1 mag for M-16 other half got 1 mag for the 1911 No one got both . Motor pool had 2 jeeps and a duce 1/2 drivable and our patrol cars was passed from shift to shift No extra running cars . Was no money in system . We bought our own TP and cleaning supplies . Supply had none.

This was FT Carson one of the Volar test centers. We had to deploy as a unit to Ft Chaffee AR . To help with the boat people from Vietnam . Many refused had a enlistment guarantee . Said Duty at FT Carson. Was a mess Soliders calling congress men or other people Demanding they remain at Carson or be discharged for military breaking their contract. They couldn't get thru their head was a 90 day TDY and we would be back. We discussed locking down entire company in barracks except for duty. Making off post married move in . . Company went but was dragged each step of way. I hated Volar No inspections of rooms Any one could move off base married or not . If in barrack living could live any where you wanted No squad or Platoon living in one area. people scattered all over. I caught a medic in a drug bust Long hair . I was sure AWOL at min. Because of hair. He wasn't He wore a wig on duty CO approved.

Volar was reason many good NCO 's walked before their 20 . I got out with NCO's with 16 18 years in Nope not going to reup for this mess.
 
#23 ·
In the Navy, most Sailors, excluding engineers, are required to get basic pistol qualified and recertify at least annually. Unfortunately, because of ammo limits, shooting was usually only the minimum. That being said every inport armed watchstander has to be able to load/unload their weapon and verify it's clear.

If Sailors who spend most of their time out to sea where they don't have to worry about it can do it, you would think Army soldiers could learn it.
 
#24 ·
From my experience those that qualified on a known distance qualification course and qualified with the highest scores were not always the best combat shots. Those that returned fire immediately were better in actual combat conditions more often than not. A lot of fire is suppressive in nature. It was not uncommon to overrun positions where the fighting holes were so constructed that guide sticks would cradle/limit the weapon to a certain field of fire with out exposing the firer. Combat shooting and target shooting may share some basics but in coming fire is a reality not dealt with on qualification ranges.
 
#27 ·
Not surprised.

Many people just assume that because someone is or was in the military they are familiar or proficient with firearms and that is further from the truth. There are a lot of people who full fill support roles that only handle a weapon once a year for re-qualification. It is evident when they go to handle a firearm. I saw this when I was in the Corps when I lateral moved from the Infantry to the MP/Corrections field coming off Embassy Duty and was shocked at our first annual range detail. However, I realized that these Marines handle a rifle once a year and that is it. They do not get the training or the extensive time with different weapon systems.

Then again if you run into a dumb dumb all bets are off( I had a few of those in our Platoon/Company)..ha ha.
 
#28 ·
Not going to be too hard on the guys- not knowing how much expierence they have shooting. Most of us had awkward moments our first few trips to the range, and we didn't have some guys Youtube camera stuck in our face. What this does show is these young soldiers are not much different than awkward young kids from 1942, exchanging farm implements for a M1 Carbine - who grew into hardened soldiers and deadly riflemen in the heat of battle- and our dad's or grandfathers.

That said, all of these young men look like great range buddies, and a great bunch of kids. Rather than laughing at them, I'll say to them Log in more range time-lots more, and if you do so all of this will become second nature in time.
 
#30 ·
Back when I went into the Army (1960) at Ft. Leonard Wood, our drill Sargent had a problem with those of us that came from hunting backgrounds. He appreciated our knowledge of gun safety, etc. but said it was harder to make us change our way of holding a rifle, sighting and so forth. Those others didn't have a clue on what to do so they didn't have any bad habits to break. But I think once we learned the Army's way, we all did very well. I'm talking about the M-1 here. What amazed me the most was shooting out to 250+ yards. Coming from the North woods of Michigan a 50 yard shoot was rare.
 
#31 ·
There are a couple possibilities here.
1- Were they actually in the military, or did they just say they were?
2- If they were, do they teach rifle shooting in bootcamp still?
3- If so, did they do any shooting since bootcamp?

Not saying there isnt just a strong possibility of them being total idiots though.
 
#32 ·
The vast majority of the military service, in all branches, is comprised of support functions. These personnel are, in some cases, absolutely essential to the ability of operational forces to conduct warfare. However, these personnel do not use firearms routinely, nor have any need to.

At minimum, I know support personnel in the Air Force have to shoot an M-16 once every 24 months. This training consists of a classroom refresher, rifle sight-in on the range and a live-fire qualification. I would guess the other services are not terribly different, as everyone has to prioritize training these days for the guys who really need it. Those support troops really need that classroom refresher training. Handling a rifle once every 2 years doesn't make you proficient.

On top of that, even infantry dudes, who shoot a lot more and handle their weapons routinely, are a completely different animal when they have their squad leader cursing at them and their platoon sergeant standing behind them, versus when they're on leisure time and you hand them a rifle. Sometimes all that training just goes right out the window.

Incidentally, the title "veteran" could mean that someone served 4 years stateside and did nothing. Combat veteran, could mean someone ran a night club for support troops to dance and party it up on their day off at a base in Kuwait. Or ran an MWR movie theater. I met people in my military career who did exactly that.

Honestly, I think you're either a 'gun guy' or you're not, regardless of what you're doing for a living.
 
#34 ·
Picking on the Wrong People

Don't pick on these kids, pick on their idiot leaders! I was in the Air Force and required to qualify on the S&W Model 15 revolver in basic training. Since I wasn't an MP/SP, there was no annual qualification, or requalification, Ever. When USAF changed to the Beretta 92, everyone had to "qualify" with it. I put that in quotes because our esteemed leaders had us pass a Beretta around the class (restricted to holding it flat in your palms only, no hand allowed around the grip, no aiming, etc.) and then we all went from the classroom to the range and shot... wait for it... the old .38s. My records were updated to show I was qualified with the Beretta. :aargh4:

Remember the active shooter rampage in the 90's at the base hospital on Fairchild AFB in Spokane, WA? I was stationed there at the time. First question all my neighbors asked me was how could the shooter do that on a military base?? My answer unfortunately had to be: No one on base is allowed to have a gun anywhere near them unless they're the military police. I had to explain the same thing again to neighbors after the guy shot up the Ft Hood deployment center. No guns allowed unless you're a military cop. Not just no personal CCW handguns. No issued guns. NO GUNS! If you lived in base housing your guns must be turned in to be stored at the base armory.
After the recent Chattanooga shooting, news reports stated that the Marine LtCol who shot at the attacker with his personal handgun "could have faced criminal charges because non-security military personnel can’t carry weapons while on duty unless they’re in a combat zone. Officials also pledged to boost security for troops stateside." Our military needs security?!?!? What do that tell you?

I've heard that with all the deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan (after I retired), the Air Force actually began allowing people to qualify (which means shoot for 30 minutes) with the guns they would be issued (but would only be issued to them once they arrived in-country and at their deployed duty station). Thirty minutes of range time does not breed any familiarity with a weapon. So ease up on these kids!! I'm sure they "really are" military (geez). Thanks goes to Nutnfancy for actually giving them some real experience with the weapon(s) they may need to defend themselves with all too soon!

Sorry for the lengthy rant.
 
#35 ·
Remember the active shooter rampage in the 90's at the base hospital on Fairchild AFB in Spokane, WA?
Not to hijack this thread, but there's been a lot of talk on this site and elsewhere lately about the ability of a CCW to intervene in an active shooter incident. In the Fairchild case, a Security Forces (think they were still called "Security Police" then) Airman rolled up on his patrol bicycle, heard gunfire, spotted the shooter and engaged him from about 70-75 yards, firing 2 shots and scoring 2 hits in the head and neck.

Security Forces Airmen still qualify on their sidearms less than most people on this site shoot their guns. Take from that what you will.
 
#38 ·
My Dear ol' Grandpappy taught me more about effective running a rifle (and shotgun) than I learned in three years from my "coach" as a member of an NCAA Smallbore Rifle Team (National Finalist) at a major university. The Army teaches minimal thresholds and passing scores, colleges teach how to WIN Championships, but Daddy Mac wanted me to know how to...EAT FOOD! And the cost of failure was...hunger.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ccw9mm
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top