Terrorism: Coming SOON to a SCHOOL near YOU! - Page 3

Terrorism: Coming SOON to a SCHOOL near YOU!

This is a discussion on Terrorism: Coming SOON to a SCHOOL near YOU! within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Okay, this thread is devolving into too much of a political discussion and I sense the mods or Bumper is going to lock it or ...

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Thread: Terrorism: Coming SOON to a SCHOOL near YOU!

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Okay, this thread is devolving into too much of a political discussion and I sense the mods or Bumper is going to lock it or close it....for various reasons. Let me offer a VARIABLE: If you were picking your kid up or a grandchild from a school and heard gunfire or saw kids and teachers running from the buildings in terror screaming something about GUN MEN or TERRORISTS and there are no cops in sight, what do you do? Suppose you're armed or you have a rifle or carbine in your vehicle? Do you engage? You can hear or see kids getting SHOT and right now.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    But, EX, I would be performing an illegal act in "penetrating a gun-free zone"!

    "I would perform acts in accordance with my training and experience."

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Rob,

    McVeigh is not the only example, just the first to come to my mind.

    In America we've had many domestic terrorists doing all manner of acts who were WASPish as you had alluded to. From Ted Kaczyinski (sp?) aka 'The Unabomber' to the still not caught and 'Zodiac Killer', both of whom were and are profiled.

    Profiling in the sense as most persons mean and think to be useful is quite broad including assessing all/any persons of a given look or outward appearance or association, without substantial and substantiated background information akin to your medical care example, is fubar.

    Again we've been though this before and it does little good.
    As to McVeigh profiling didn't catch him, that was largely due to luck and his own stupidity toward covering his associative tracks.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Okay, this thread is devolving into too much of a political discussion and I sense the mods or Bumper is going to lock it or close it....for various reasons. Let me offer a VARIABLE: If you were picking your kid up or a grandchild from a school and heard gunfire or saw kids and teachers running from the buildings in terror screaming something about GUN MEN or TERRORISTS and there are no cops in sight, what do you do? Suppose you're armed or you have a rifle or carbine in your vehicle? Do you engage? You can hear or see kids getting SHOT and right now.
    In MI, we can carry in the parking lot of prohibited areas, so I'm legal there.

    I'd hopefully find my kid, tell him or her which direction to run if I feel the risk is low if they can head away from the action. I'd have no choice but to engage. I'll do my best to see bad guy before he spots me, but my gun stays holtered until I see someone with a gun, I don't fire until I see someone shooting and I know waht they are shooting at. Some might think that this is risking another child casulty, but I'm not gonna kill some other kids' parent. Shooting the first person I find with a gun, even if he's shooting, might be the wrong guy. It might even be someone who I could have worked with. I definately try to not let PD see my gun. That would cause them to waste resources securing me.

    You know, there is a lot of variables, sometimes the best choice might be to herd innoccents into an area, then stand guard at the approach to that area. Again, I'd try to keep my piece concealed until the last minute.
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  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Boy Charged With Terrorism

    Rob,

    I bring up a new browser window for work purposes and as my default/start page is ABCNews.com the following is what popped up on my screen...

    Boy Charged With Terrorism
    Arizona Middle Schooler Is Found With Weapons, Accused of Plotting Columbine-Style Attack

    By BILL REDEKER

    April 3, 2007 — A middle school student who allegedly confronted a girl with a knife has become one of the youngest Americans ever charged with terrorism.

    Late Monday, Maricopa County attorney Andrew Thomas officially charged the 14-year-old boy from Mesa, Ariz., with terrorism, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, kidnapping and carrying weapons on a school campus.



    The alleged crimes took place two weeks ago when police say the boy, who is an eighth grader at Powell Junior High School, approached a girl with a knife as she walked home from school. The girl escaped and called police. When the boy failed to show up at school the next day, police visited his home.

    They found a backpack full of weapons including a handgun and ammo, chains, and rope. Police said they want the boy to be tried as an adult.

    The charge of terrorism includes "substantial interruption of a public facility or establishment with a deadly weapon," according to the county attorney's office.

    Mesa Police say the youth admitted to planning to take his class hostage. The boy told police that he intended to kill the girl, whom he singled out at random, police spokeswoman Holly Hosac said.

    "From all indications, he was a good student and had never been in any trouble before," Hosac told the Arizona Republic newspaper. "His parents are beside themselves."

    County officials said the boy had plotted a "Columbine-like" scenario. It was not the first time someone has tried to imitate the deadly 1999 shooting massacre at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., in which two youths killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 24 others before committing suicide.

    Because of the fear of such copycat threats, the depositions of the parents of Columbine killers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold will be kept under seal in the National Archives for 20 years. Federal judge Lewis Babcock made that ruling Monday, after stating that no one, including violence prevention experts, will be able to review the depositions until they are unsealed in 2027. Attempts to contact the Mesa boy and his parents were unsuccessful.

    The article can be found at; http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3003977&page=1
    How would your seminars propose succesfully profiling persons like middle school students with backpacks & unlawful motivations, and what of the persons profiled who are caught in the middle and are wholly innocent of any crimes past, present, or future?
    It'll take some effort to sell profiling as effective and for me personally there is no Kool-Aid to drink nor been offered to me when many times over pre 9/11 I've been victim of 'DWB' and other modes of fitting some persons percieved profile.
    It's real easy to talk about but much more difficult to live with.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #36
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    Awesome Point Made!

    Quote Originally Posted by LBrombach View Post
    Some might think that this is risking another child casulty, but I'm not gonna kill some other kids' parent. Shooting the first person I find with a gun, even if he's shooting, might be the wrong guy. It might even be someone who I could have worked with. I definately try to not let PD see my gun. That would cause them to waste resources securing me.
    WOW That is perhaps the most cogent and AWESOME observation in this thread. GREAT POINT and I concur completely. Of course my perspective comes from inside the classroom.

    In which case, I try to get any kids and teachers off campus safely. If I see a shooter and I'm unarmed, I have to try and "see" the situation clearly and all my options.

    Option #1 is trying to acquire one of the BGs guns if there are more than one and they can be split or are operating as loners. I understand this is a HUGE risk. But if it's the best alternative, I can only react and respond to training. Something that never seems to leave one.

    Option #2 is simply act as a forward recon element for the cops and maintain observation of the subjects so I can direct assets to the action, via cell phone. Keep a low profile and keep my head down.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #37
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Rob,
    We've had terrorists in recent times with largely WASP types of belief bombing Americans and shooting them in their home and at their place of work following extreme and fringe personal beliefs and/or interpreatations of their own chosen religious association to Christianity and abortion.
    Do we toss every white Chrisitan into a profile and assess them all because a very small minority domestically acts up and acts wrongly? No, that would be wholly deemed as ridiculous and ineffective and worst oppressive, as it would be.

    - Janq
    Janq - I don't mean for this to get to political but we do profile Christians. If you need proof, find a mid 30s white man dressed in business-casual clothing and carrying a Bible. Have this man walk to the front door of an abortion clinic and see how far he gets without being stopped/questioned. Pick a day that they are performing abortions and I guarantee he will not make it to the front door, no matter what he says. He is liable to be arrested for tresspassing!

    I'm not passing judgement on this practice, in reality it seems very logical, but you can't deny that this is profiling.

    Another example that I sometimes bring up, use the same man (with or without the Bible I guess) driving a nice car in the predominantly minority "bad neighborhood" of town at 3am. He will get pulled over and questioned.

    This one is less political, this is a good example of profiling and completely justifiable IMHO. In both of these examples, the "victim" of profiling is not even suspected of intent to commit a violent crime, they simply meet the criteria for a stereotype (Christian Fundementalist about to make a "scene" at the clinic and White middle-class drug user looking to "score") and this is all it takes to raise the situational awareness and get a little more attention.

    BTW: If you do try the first, don't carry. If you try the second.... well don't. We are supposed to try our best to avoid these situations.

  8. #38
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    This makes me so sad. I work in Education, not in a school and I am not a teacher, but I work with schools and their administrations on a constant basis. I go into many schools for my work. I do trainings in schools. I disarm in the parking lot and go in and feel naked, especially when seeing the "no weapons" signs posted everywhere.

    They have all of these "drills" in place for school shootings and yet they are all based on a single shooter or maybe two. There's nothing in place for mass, planned attacks.

    What better than to allow willing teachers to arm themselves? How many children's lives would that save? A class here, a class there, maybe even a whole school!

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Janq, I'm not going to argue. I spent 5 years, elbows deep in all the blood & guts I could enjoy, in Wichita, KS. Drunks, shootings, knifings, MVAs, EDPs, child rape, etc.. I'm hardly an "academic".

    Survey/profiling tools are used every day by folks in the field, consciously and otherwise; it frequently keeps them alive. I pursued higher training because of personal interest- like FOF, it's something that needs hands-on to be appreciated.

    Why do we train, model, hypothesize? To create a solution pattern that decreases out resolution time, and maximizes benefit/cost ratio. It is not popular, in some contextual areas, but it is true. I'll respectfully agree to disagree.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBrombach View Post
    You know, there is a lot of variables, sometimes the best choice might be to herd innoccents into an area, then stand guard at the approach to that area. Again, I'd try to keep my piece concealed until the last minute.
    Excellent idea, particularly with what happened at Beslan. Things might have been radically different if the terrorists had been forced to fight their way in, and try to defend from external assault.

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