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Helping Leo's after the fact

2K views 47 replies 28 participants last post by  nmbr5ml 
#1 · (Edited)
As many of you know two Deputies were killed here in Marland last week minutes apart . If you see what was happening and right after the first Leo was shot and you could fire a round to stop that from spilling over further .
Would you take that shot , and would you do that if you do not feel threatened ???

In the state of Maryland i do feel that you would not get into problems with the state if you had a permit and stopped any further loss of life to occur .
My biggest concern if his partner seen the BG and would he assume you are a BG and take action . Because his mind may play tricks on him on what he seen or did not see.


I do realize the chances of this happening to one of us is slim to none but i would like to hear some feedback . Not interested in Macho talk .
 
#3 ·
I live in Virginia, where the gun laws are different, so YMMV.

Combining the lessons I've learned from both CCW as well as Active Shooter training, as well as keeping Virginia law close at hand, here's my response. Please note, I am neither a lawyer nor LEO:

The use of deadly force is justified when doing so is to prevent lethal harm to one's self OR TO OTHERS. That said, immediately after the threat has been removed, it's best to put one's weapon on the ground, raise one's hands in surrender, and obey completely the orders of LEO.

In crisis situations, such as an active shooter, LEO is prepared to assume that anyone displaying a weapon is intent on harm, and they are amped up enough to react accordingly. Thus, being a "good guy" can turn into being a "dead guy" if one isn't completely aware of the steps to take IMMEDIATELY after using one's weapon.
 
#4 ·
I would have to know another shooting was going to take place, or if it was perhaps an active situation where a LEO was pinned and could not defend.

Then I think I would act.

Unfortunately, If it was over by the time I could act and the suspect was fleeing, I would not take the shot. I would call 911 and be a good witness. A cop-shooter generally does not get to run long or far.

ETA: Aiding an officer by using my firearm without some invitation to do so could be a very risky act.
 
#6 ·
As many of you know two Deputies were killing here in Marland last week minutes apart . If you see what was happening and right after the first Leo was shot and you could fire a round to stop that from spilling over further .
Would you take that shot , and would you do that if you do not feel threatened ???

In the state of Maryland i do feel that you would not get into problems with the state if you had a permit and stopped any further loss of life to occur .
My biggest concern if his partner seen the BG and would he assume you are a BG and take action . Because his mind may play tricks on him on what he seen or did not see.


I do realize the chances of this happening to one of us is slim to none but i would like to hear some feedback . Not interested in Macho talk .
In my state you can defend a third party. If I saw what you described, I would take the shot.
 
#7 ·
A 15 year old girl and her Mom was very close to the shooter and when he put the gun to the Deputies head . I will find the story and post it here as well , seeing an officer fall over and dying would be very traumatic for anyone .
 
#8 ·
leaving out the specifics of this, or any other event - as a general rule - I will do my best to help to keep someone from being murdered, LEO or not.

Caveats include(bot not limited too): immediate risk to my family - uncertainty about who is "bad" and "good"
 
#12 ·
Okay, let me see if I have the scenario right: there are two LEOs, you, and the bad guy. The BG just shot one of the LEOs. The other LEO is still there and functional. You know that you would be legally justified in shooting the BG, but you are concerned that the second LEO might think you're a bad guy, and shoot you.

My question is, why isn't the second LEO shooting the BG?

If the second LEO is under threat, or taking fire, or compromised in some way, then I take the shot, and - if the BG is stopped - put my weapon down and my hands up in the air and pray. If the second LEO is not compromised, I back off and observe.

Defense of self or others in a public place is always a little dicey - there's always a chance that someone (LEO, another concealed carrier) will think that you're the bad guy and harm you. It's a risk that you take, and it's a very different situation from defending yourself from an armed intruder in your home.
 
#15 ·
I was going with this:

My biggest concern if his partner seen the BG and would he assume you are a BG and take action . Because his mind may play tricks on him on what he seen or did not see.
I was assuming that "partner" meant "other LEO who was at the scene at the same time", although I agree it's a little vague.
 
#14 ·
It hinges upon whether or not an immediate threat exists to yourself or another. If he's attempting to put a second shot into the officer or he starts to point his gun at you, you are cleared to shoot. If he is attempting to flee the scene after having shot the officer (or anyone else) and unless you live in Texas, it could be considered a revenge shooting and you would be at risk. JMO
 
#26 ·
That is a biiiiiiiiig stretch as I would have no reason for revenge but every reason to stop a threat that is still armed and loose to commit further deadly harm to the public. I don't think any DA is going to press charges for shooting a cop killer under any circumstances.
 
#19 ·
Though I can appreciate those who have a 'code of valor', let's remind ourselves that in a public situation involving strangers, you do not know the facts.

You don't know who the BG is. You don't know if there is someone else on the periphery who could shoot you. Your loved ones expect you to come home to them each night and protect them and not go to jail or die as a result of inserting yourself into a foreign situation.

"I'd shoot; oh, I didn't think about the fact that I could get shot and leave my spouse and child without a parent". Is that valor or foolishness?

Example?

You come across an off-duty cop in plain-clothes and two guys who just did a home invasion dressed as LEO. Now, you just shot a cop. Nice.

If you don't know all the facts you're not in LE with qualified immunity, you have a family who depends on you, you don't have a backup who is also armed, then you're taking a huge risk, you're not being a hero.

FWIW
 
#20 ·
While I understand your words of caution and agree with it somewhat, if you see an individual come up put a gun to an officers head and pull the trigger, Ill bet you can be sure something is wrong and taking the shot IMO would be a good shoot.....
 
#22 ·
If I saw in officer in trouble and could take the shot, I would. A lot would depend on the situation and I would definitely consider that other officers would perceive me as a threat.
 
#24 ·
As many of you know two Deputies were killed here in Marland last week minutes apart . If you see what was happening and right after the first Leo was shot and you could fire a round to stop that from spilling over further .
Would you take that shot , and would you do that if you do not feel threatened ???
In Texas? Of course I would.

But police states like MD, NJ, MA, NY, etc wouldn't allow me to be armed, so no.
 
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#25 ·
As many of you know two Deputies were killed here in Marland last week minutes apart . If you see what was happening and right after the first Leo was shot and you could fire a round to stop that from spilling over further .
Would you take that shot , and would you do that if you do not feel threatened ???

In the state of Maryland i do feel that you would not get into problems with the state if you had a permit and stopped any further loss of life to occur .
My biggest concern if his partner seen the BG and would he assume you are a BG and take action . Because his mind may play tricks on him on what he seen or did not see.


I do realize the chances of this happening to one of us is slim to none but i would like to hear some feedback . Not interested in Macho talk .
As a witness you may be stunned and trying to process what you just saw. This may delay your reaction. I had a lot of things happen in front of me on-duty where it took a few seconds to absorb what I'm pretty sure I just saw in front of me.

In the MD case a bystander would be morally justified in taking out the shooter whether or not the shooter was a direct threat to the bystander.
 
#30 ·
I'm not sure I would intervene, unless I could stop the criminal before he/she exiting the establishment, and there were no other LEO's in the place. I doubt I would go after the criminal outside of the establishment for fear of being mistaken for the criminal by other LEO's.
 
#32 ·
My thought was if I was sitting eating lunch next to the Leo & BG and seen that happen it would be hard not to act , because I would not know for sure if I was next but I just witnessed a LEO being shot . I am not going to ask if I am next .
I won't run after them but fire on them before they could inflict more death on anyone else . My biggest concern is knowing or not knowing a LEO would be near by to see just me thinking I did something to the officer .
These scenarios are very hard to deal with , but I am talking about what happened here in this case . I am certain Maryland would not charge a GG with a crime if he had a permit .
 
#31 ·
Add in another part of the story - the incident took place during lunchtime which means around here that the place was pretty crowded.


All the more reason to train, train, train to make sure if you ever do have to take that shot that you're going to be disposing of BGs and not friendlies......
 
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#33 ·
I am a retired Maryland LEO and while I probably would have went after the guy without thinking, I would probably been in violation of Maryland law as a citizen. The guy was walking away from the crime scene. If he still had his gun in hand, you might be able to claim he was still a threat to others. If he did not, is there imminent danger?
 
#34 ·
Me? Probably would not have engaged, especially if he is leaving. If I'm at a restaurant, I probably have my wife and daughters with me. I'm not placing them in further danger by drawing fire in their direction. Now, If the maniac is going from table to table with a machete, that's different. Another thing that needs to be considered is the fact that if you participate, you will be in the news, name, photo, etc. There could be retribution from bad guys friends, family, etc. Case in point: The guy that assisted the cop that was getting beat by the crowd of teenagers. This guy is now a target. Personally, I'm not willing to make my family targets.
 
#36 ·
If I see a guy walk up and gun down a cop, then turn to walk away still armed, I'd most likely shoot him. I'd feel that my life and everyone else's around there were in serious jeopardy.

Once i see there are no more threats, start CPR/ apply pressure to GSWs in the cop ASAP while somebody calls 911.

If I were to witness this it'd be in a public place with other people around so I'd have to think that once the cop was out of commission, us citizens would be next. Why would the perp leave witnesses? I wouldn't if I were him....



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#41 ·
If I see a guy walk up and gun down a cop, then turn to walk away still armed, I'd most likely shoot him. I'd feel that my life and everyone else's around there were in serious jeopardy.

Once i see there are no more threats, start CPR/ apply pressure to GSWs in the cop ASAP while somebody calls 911.

If I were to witness this it'd be in a public place with other people around so I'd have to think that once the cop was out of commission, us citizens would be next. Why would the perp leave witnesses? I wouldn't if I were him....

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The red bold text I should've included in my previous post. If somebody kills an officer who's trying to be nice to him, you have every reason to believe the BG will not have a problem killing you or others nearby.
 
#37 ·
For you Leo's and ex Leo's out there, could you answer this, because I've always wondered. If that exact scenario happened and only citizens were there, would it be best to use the officers own radio to call and say that an officer has been hit, give his condition, a description of the perp and the direction he's going? Seems like it would be way more current than using 911, and waiting for information to be transferred to Leo's, especially when the shooter is still alive and moving.
 
#38 ·
No cop but I think that could help and hurt the situation both at the same time.

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