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Military and LE Marksmanship

3K views 49 replies 30 participants last post by  SatCong 
#1 ·
Back in 1976 in basic training for the U.S. Coast Guard I earned an Expert Medal qualifying in pistol shooting. I remember being really proud of this as I was only 18 at the time. However, I have no idea what I did to earn this, I just don't remember. Is qualifying tough? Is it a gimme? Distance? How many rounds? Standing, Prone? Have the standards changed over the years? I know the pistol has. I used a 1911 in that period, since then the USCG moved to an M9 and currently a P229. Does law enforcement have different standards? How about other branches? I also earned a Marksmanship Ribbon for the M16...but I think that was probably fairly easy to do.

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#3 ·
I have been around guns for as long as I can remember...probably starting when I was 5 or 6.

When I was enlisted, we fired the M-1 Carbine at 100 yards. I qualified as expert...ho hum, I thought. Then, when I got my commission, we qualified with the 1911 .45 at 25 yards. These must have been early WWII rejects with, I thought, about 50 pounds of trigger pull. We fired free-hand, single handed, and I almost couldn't pull the trigger. I was pulling so hard on the trigger that the gun just shook...then, BANG. I barely qualified and was completely discouraged. I couldn't believe that I just couldn't shoot that gun and it was going to be my regular carry.

Later, we transitioned to the .38 revolver (combat masterpiece, i think), and I again qualified as expert. I think the distance was only 50 FEET. Later, I qualified as expert on the M-16. I don't remember the distance. I was feeling good again.

I have always shied away from the 1911, .45, because of my lousy shooting when I was a kid in 1961. Someday, I hope to try again. I don't know if I want to "double down" on my incompetence with the .45. Maybe someday...maybe... :redface::frown:
 
#7 ·
The 1911s you can buy are light years ahead of indifferently-maintained "gummint" 1911s from your service days. You really owe it to yourself to give one (or more) a try. Surely you have some shooting buddies who'd give you a turn with theirs. If not, fuel up the Learjet and fly on out to Mesa, AZ, and we'll have a good time shooting mine. (Just) 4 to choose from.
 
#9 ·
I too have an E ribbon for pistol in the Coast Guard a few years before you. The one thing that stuck in my mind was when they brought out the pistols in a wheelbarrow style cart with the pistols piled in it and handed them out. You could literally shake it and it'd sound like a maraca. Guess I was one of the lucky ones that got a mutt pistol with parts that worked well together.

I attribute it to Cape May just bringing out the urge to shoot something real good for my two ribbons.
 
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#10 ·
I qualified Expert with both the M-16 and the 4-inch S&W Model 15 but carried a 3-inch Model 10/15 depending what Command Post had at the time. The M-16 qualification was at 100 yards and IIRC it was 100 rounds prone, kneeling and standing. The 38 on the other hand was 50 rounds at 25 yards shooting kneeling, standing, left barricade, right barricade and double action standing.
 
#11 ·
Back in 1976 in basic training for the U.S. Coast Guard I earned an Expert Medal qualifying in pistol shooting. I remember being really proud of this as I was only 18 at the time. However, I have no idea what I did to earn this, I just don't remember. Is qualifying tough? Is it a gimme? Distance? How many rounds? Standing, Prone? Have the standards changed over the years? I know the pistol has. I used a 1911 in that period, since then the USCG moved to an M9 and currently a P229. Does law enforcement have different standards? How about other branches? I also earned a Marksmanship Ribbon for the M16...but I think that was probably fairly easy to do.

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Thank you for your Service to our country. IMO, you were in an environment that was not controlled by you. You were in a situation whereby you were caused to engage in training. It was your whole focus during your time in Basic Training. Everything was geared toward and focused on breaking you down so as to build you up (it's called indoctrination). And part of that building process was the introduction of the firearm that you demonstrated a measured and acceptable level of proficiency with. You were caused to know that weapon, every part of it; it's nomenclature along with all of its parts; you learned to manipulate that weapon in accordance established guidelines or guidance given; you learned how to carry it in an orderly and/or uniformed manner; you became so disciplined that you and the weapon became one. Then you were put to the test. By this time you were so familiar with the weapon that you forgot how much you went through to get to know it. But now, you're caused to fire down range at a target or series of targets and at varying distances to further clarify your proficiency with the weapon overall. You did well, and the scores reflected what you did well. Hence, the appropriate marksmanship badge. But also notice, that every so often you were caused to go back to the range and do it again. In the interim, you still trained, so as to make all separate parts, one.

Of course the true test in a combat situation has nothing to do with gun. Thank you again for your service to our country.

For me it was the M9 and M16 and later other weapons systems. By that time badges no longer mattered accept to fulfill minimum requirements to demonstrate that level of proficiency which was always optimal.
 
#12 ·
Let's put it this way:

If I don't earn an "E" (expert) every time I qualify with either the M9 or M4, I feel like crap.

This is coming from a "chair force" guy though, so what the hell do I know LOL! :)
 
#19 ·
True...Did you get "E" on the new M4/M16 course?

I qualified on M9, M16, M16A2, M4 and some others during my time in. Got "E" on each every time but for us it was expected.

Regarding the M1 / M14, IMO they are easier to hit with at full distance due to rifle weight and rounds seem to buck the wind a bit better...iron sights are better too!
 
#13 ·
I know I felt better when transporting classified targeting data off of the support base. I never felt secure again until we were within the Launch Facility fence and the gates were closed and locked.

Talk about SA...

This was the height of the Cold War and with our inexperience and having our imaginations running away with us and the Soviet Threat drilled into us we thought there was a Russian on every street corner just waiting to make a move on our classified material.
 
#14 ·
Some searching and found what I wanted to know:

12 rounds in 12 minutes at 25 yards (75 feet) (every round is scored).
6 rounds in 24 seconds at 25 yards (75 feet) twice;
6 rounds in 24 seconds at 15 yards (45 feet)

'Sharpshooter' scoring a 129 out of 150 ( I couldn't find what the score level is for 'Expert')

This was not from an official Coast Guard site, just from a guy on the Walther Forum that remembered the test in boot camp.
This is supposedly the target, however not what we used in 1976
http://www.letargets.com/content/ltr-i-blue-us-dept-the-treasury-transitional-target-i-blue.asp
 
#15 ·
Some searching and found what I wanted to know:

12 rounds in 12 minutes at 25 yards (75 feet) (every round is scored).
6 rounds in 24 seconds at 25 yards (75 feet) twice;
6 rounds in 24 seconds at 15 yards (45 feet)

'Sharpshooter' scoring a 129 out of 150 ( I couldn't find what the score level is for 'Expert')

This was not from an official Coast Guard site, just from a guy on the Walther Forum that remembered the test in boot camp.
This is supposedly the target, however not what we used in 1976
Law Enforcement Targets | Action Target : US Dept. of the Treasury Transitional Target I (Blue)
That is a very easy course of fire. Many people think that qualification is training and it prepares them for a gun fight. All it does is indicate that you possess the minimum acceptable standard to carry a specific gun.

I was fortunate, I grew up shooting, so by the time I went in the Army at 18 I qualified Expert with the M-16, 1911 and shotgun. I qualified marksman with the hand grenade, close DOES count with hand grenades. For many years in the Border Patrol we had to fire 12 shots @ 50 yards as part of the course, they dropped that when we transitioned to the Beretta 40's.

This is the course I qualify on now.


Stage 1: 3-yard line

3 rounds in 3 seconds, strong hand only. Repeat 2x
3 rounds strong hand only, 3 rounds weak hand only in 8 seconds

After Stage 1, you then shoot freestyle, meaning using both hands, for the rest of the Course of Fire.

Stage 2: 5-yard line

3 rounds in 3 seconds. Repeat 4x.

Stage 3: 7-yard line

4 rounds in 4 seconds. Repeat 2x
4 rounds, reload from slide lock, 4 rounds in 8 seconds.

Stage 4: 15-yard line

3 rounds in 6 seconds. Repeat 2x
4 rounds in 8 seconds

This last part is the part where you need cover. You could still do this without cover, but again, it loses a little something.

Stage 5: 25-yard line

Move to cover and fire 2 rounds standing, 3 rounds kneeling in 15 seconds, Repeat 2x

That’s it. Now just total up your score and see how you compare to the requirements to be a federal agent. The requirement for an agent to pass is to shoot 48 out of 60 rounds.
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#16 ·
lchamp give the 1911 platform one more try with a quality weapon. I really think you will enjoy the accuracy and ergonomics of JMBs masterpiece. Don't let one bad example sour you on the finest breed of handguns ever made.
 
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#17 ·
I qualified as Expert with the rifles and handgun during my 8 weeks of Infantry basic and 8 weeks of advanced infantry training at Camp Chaffee Arkansas. We fired on targets at 100, 200 and 300 yards with the M1 Carbine, M1 Garand. We also qualified with the M3, BAR, 1919A6, and the Colt 1911.
 
#22 ·
When I went through Basic Training, we had 40 rounds to hit 40 popups.

Thirty six was the cutoff for expert.

I hit 34-35, can't remember which, but I know that I missed a 400m target, attempted a second shot on it (we were told not to do that, but I did it anyway) and I missed again. That move cost me expert.
 
#24 ·
I got a Expert with M16A1,M60,Grenade(once or twice sharpshooter) and a Marksman with the 1911...that said the 1911's circa the mid to late 1980's(at the switchover where they were going to the beretta and wouldnt send/let you order new 1911 parts only strip old ones for parts) were pure GARBAGE. Shot PERFECT score with the .38 Revolver(to make our Army pistol team) also shot what would have been a expert score with a non military Colt 1911(privately owned by a Sgt) and shot expert also the one and only time I got to shoot the Beretta before I ETS. But those late era 1911's SMH BAD lol.
 
#27 ·
Even at the time I knew it couldn't be too tough. I had zero handgun shooting experience, but enough of an apparent steady hand. I do remember I was the only one of about 30 that did get an expert medal. Still, I never really believed it was that difficult.
 
#28 ·
Okay, you baited me into curiosity. I dug through some boxes and found my Coast Guard "Blue Book". Remember the one they gave in boot camp "The Coast Guardsman's Manual"? That started me down this rabbit hole and that led me to a 1993 USCG district instruction that described the following reliance on Marine/Navy manuals.

The USCG has used the Marine/Navy "Landing Party Manual" for the testing and rewarding of marksmanship ribbons and medals. Now, I found an old copy of this here:

https://archive.org/details/landingpartymanu00unit

If you look at pages 556 up to about 560 or so they spell out what the requirements were for each weapon and level of marksmanship.


And the search goes on. Sheesh, there goes another afternoon..... LOL
 
#42 ·
Okay, you baited me into curiosity. I dug through some boxes and found my Coast Guard "Blue Book". Remember the one they gave in boot camp "The Coast Guardsman's Manual"? That started me down this rabbit hole and that led me to a 1993 USCG district instruction that described the following reliance on Marine/Navy manuals.

The USCG has used the Marine/Navy "Landing Party Manual" for the testing and rewarding of marksmanship ribbons and medals. Now, I found an old copy of this here:

Thanks for your time on this....when I get a moment, I'll look it over.

https://archive.org/details/landingpartymanu00unit

If you look at pages 556 up to about 560 or so they spell out what the requirements were for each weapon and level of marksmanship.


And the search goes on. Sheesh, there goes another afternoon..... LOL

Thanks for spending time on this. When I get a moment or two I'll study it a bit.
 
#29 ·
It's great that we recognize people who shoot well. It's the military, and recognizing those who perform better at this martial task is the right thing to do and should be encouraged. I wish we would shoot more and have bigger ammo accounts to practice more regularly. The fact is for most Airmen weapons qual is considered "just in time" training and is now only done right before deploying.

However, when someone who has never held a gun before joining the military is labeled "expert marksman" upon completing their first weapons qualification, I giggle a little inside.
 
#33 ·
Marksmanship training is far different today than what I experienced in 1953. We were subjected to several days of classroom instructions on the weapons we were required to qualify with and several days of range familiarization with each before we qualified. Qualification took one week on the rifle range in our first 8 weeks of training with the M1 & M2 Carbine, M1 Garrand, and Colt 1911. Our second 8 weeks of training we attended the same type classroom training and familiarization and then one week on the range to qualify with the BAR, M3 .45 cal Grease Gun, Rocket Launcher, .30 cal M1919A6 MG and M2 .50 cal MG. My records indicate I qualified Expert with the M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, 1911 and Sharpshooter with the BAR, and .30 cal MG, but nothing for the other weapons. Guess I failed to qualify with them.
 
#35 ·
Marine Corps if I remember right it was marksmen, sharp shooter then expert. In basic we quilfied with m16 and 45s. I wound up with expert with m16 and marksmen with 45. First duty station they were still using m14s. I had to requilify with the m14. Shot expert again. Never did requilify with 45.
 
#41 ·
I qualified as a Sharpshooter with the M-16 A2, Expert with the M-4, Sharpshooter with the M-240 B, Marksman with the M-249 SAW and Browning Ma Deuce. I have never shot the Barretta M9, the Mark 19, or the M-60... The M-60 was a bit before my time. If I remember correctly, when I was qualifying with my M-4 I barely qualified because the 25m targets weren't falling because there were too many huge holes in it, so I had to go for headshots on that one after I caught onto what was going on. I also couldn't strap my ACH on while I was shooting with my pro mask on. It fell off when I was kneeling and rolled in front of the firing line. My range safety told me to just keep firing and to get it afterwards. I was surprised by that one.
 
#48 ·
I must have gotten out as you got in. We had, and I carried the M60, and eventually the SAW. I think as a 60 gunner I was one of the last people of that era to carry a 1911. In my time there were A1's & 2's but never saw a M4. We scoffed at the Beretta as it came in, I clung to my 1911 as long as I could. Wish I could get some of that range time back!
 
#43 ·
I know.. Wiki isn't really an "official" source of good information but I found this and it pretty much matches what I remember from the yearly pistol qualification we did.

"For example, to earn an Army Marksmanship Qualification Badge for Pistol at the Combat Pistol Qualification Course, one must have a combined hit count of 26 out of 30 for expert, 21 out of 30 for sharpshooter, and 16 out of 30 for marksman on firing tables one through five. Regardless of the soldier's overall score, everyone must have a minimum hit count of three out of seven while wearing a gas mask for the chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) firing table and two out of five while shooting at night for the night firing table."

Did that both with the 1911 and later with the M9 Beretta. Retired in 94 so not sure what changes have happened since then.

For the record, I also qualified with the M16-A1 as my issued weapon varied with my job. Both Rifle and Pistol, managed to get EXPERT qualifications.
 
#44 ·
I used to shoot PPC with a local Sheriff's department and as I recall the "qualification" for the active officers was 480 out of 600 possible within the torso of an FBI Silhouette target. That would be the portion not including the arms. A, B or C hits, or pretty much keeping everything inside the 8 ring of the FBI Silhouettes we used. That's strong & weak, 3,7,15, 25 and 50 yards rapid and slow, standing and kneeling or sitting. Kind of a mixed bag.

They were also savvy enough to insist they qualify with their service weapon and loads - because clowns would qualify with target revolvers and mid-range wadcutters and then think they were gold with their duty equipment.
 
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