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How Far Back Do Gun Sale Records Go?

2K views 42 replies 24 participants last post by  tcox4freedom 
#1 ·
I posted this in the "Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion" section because I would most like to hear from LEOs, present and past, who have had experience tracing gun records, although I'd be happy to hear from anyone with direct knowledge in this area.

Here's my hypothetical scenario: Some president, governor or mayor orders (illegal) gun confiscation, like after Katrina, despite any legal prohibitions to the contrary. If a person had a handgun that was bought completely legally at a gun store, but:
  • It was in the mid-70's, way before the Brady Bill and the NICS system
  • It was in a state the owner lived in previously, not his current state of residence
  • There was a state background check per GCA, but it was purely a paper transaction
My question is: How likely is it that "confiscators" would have that gun on their list?

BTW, I am well aware of the "boating accident" defense!
 
#2 ·
Depends on whether the gun dealer is still in business. FFLs are required to keep the paperwork from their transactions for 20 years after the transaction. Beyond that if they are out of business and did not turn the paperwork into ATF then there is a good chance there is no record of the sale. I have firearm purchased in the early 1980's that was bought at a gun shop that went belly up in 1985. So who knows? I figure there is probably no record of it remaining. I still have the original receipt I recently found cleaning out some old boxes in my basement but the idiot counter guy wrote the wrong serial number on the receipt. :blink:

Oh well.......
 
#3 ·
Gun sale records started with Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968.

When an FFL closes shop, he is required to send all copys of the 4473 to the ATF, where each and every one is scanned into a database.

So, yes, there is a record of it. An ATF agent can demand to see any 4473 that a dealer has on his premises and there is nothing that a dealer can do about it except let them see them all.

For you folks that are living in la-la land and think that background checks are meant to prevent crime, you might be interested in the various reports going around of ATF agents demanding to see all 4473's at gun shops and taking pictures of them all.

The 4473 has never been about crime. Its about an instant database of gun-owners...like it or not.

As for the instant transactions over the phone or on the computer, every one is recorded. That is why they issue NICS transaction numbers for everyone. They can pull it up at any time.




Why do you think they want to do the same for private transactions? The brain washed majority wont figure it out until its too late.
 
#4 ·
Gun sale records started with Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968.

When an FFL closes shop, he is required to send all copys of the 4473 to the ATF, where each and every one is scanned into a database.

So, yes, there is a record of it. An ATF agent can demand to see any 4473 that a dealer has on his premises and there is nothing that a dealer can do about it except let them see them all.

For you folks that are living in la-la land and think that background checks are meant to prevent crime, you might be interested in the various reports going around of ATF agents demanding to see all 4473's at gun shops and taking pictures of them all.

The 4473 has never been about crime. Its about an instant database of gun-owners...like it or not.

As for the instant transactions over the phone or on the computer, every one is recorded. That is why they issue NICS transaction numbers for everyone. They can pull it up at any time.

Why do you think they want to do the same for private transactions? The brain washed majority wont figure it out until its too late.
OK, that's good info and provides a piece of my answer, thanks. But to the specific confiscation question, Let's say the confiscators are the local PD or even the state National Guard. They are going to need a list of all the people now in their jurisdiction who ever bought a gun in any state at any time. Even with the cooperation of the ATF, how hard would it be to come up with that list?
 
#5 ·
All they would have to do is go to every FFL and seize their records.

They could call it a "national emergency" whether faked or real and get away with it.

Lets say some terrorists approach a large event like a concert or a foot ball game with 80,000 people in it and did nothing other than stand at every exit and shoot people as they came out. The horror and crys for safety would be so loud that Congress passes a law at 2:00 am in the morning with a minority that demands all 4473's are "surrendered" so as the find the bad guys that did this terrible thing.

Even if some FFL's could see through the BS and refused to submit, that database still has the info needed.

I dont think local law enforcement would do it, for one, there arent enough of them to go around and two, too many that I know would refuse to enforce a Federal Mandate since they are State and not Federal.

How hard is it to come up with a list? A phone call to the right people and a few key clicks on the computer.
 
#12 ·
Unless the person you sold it to does something illegal with it, then your lack of papers puts you as the only one without a chair when the music stops. If you're willing to take that fall, then so be it, but they'll tackle someone for the problem and it doesn't really matter who. Don't misunderstand me, I'm as much against registrations and paper trails as anyone, but that is the reality of it.
 
#9 ·
I have a difficult time thinking the government is that good at keeping records from 40 years ago. Maybe I am wrong.
 
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#10 ·
My own personal belief is that "if" you committed a crime so bad that the Feds were looking at you , Like say the Santa Barbara killers, they could go back as far as they wanted. At that point they will expend as much energy as it takes to turn every stone! When It comes to Gun confiscation "They" don't need lists of the guns you have, just an idea that you might have a gun! When they come door to door, If you do not turn in the amount of guns they "Think" you might have [ this will be based mostly on interviewing you, your family. your neighbors, etc...] they will arrest you, and tear your house apart looking. This is designed to get others to believe that they have these lists! And convince them to give up the guns when they knock the first time!
I get this from watching how other country's have done it and watching how the government has banned and confiscated other things! DR
 
#11 ·
Dont plan on turning in any guns. Nor being here if confiscation is started.
As far as the governor declaring emergency or Feds that ,by statute, disallows any entity or unit of government disarming anyone.
A national or statewide declaration to disarm the citizens is tatamount to gov declaring war on its own citizens and should expect all that would entail.
 
#14 ·
Seeing as how this thread is primarily about FFLs and their records, why do you think being in Kentucky makes it any different for you? Indiana doesn't have registration, but I am under no illusions that the FFLs have the records, especially as mine happens to be a family friend.
 
#21 ·
Storm think of some community festival, like a apple festival etc.
Now call it Court Days, mix in a ton of booths selling all kunds of stuff from antiques to old farm implements, you name it,
Now add in a whole lot of gun selling, trading, buying, and food and ya got Court Days lol.
 
#24 ·
I like HotGuns post(s) direct and to the point , the part that is most troubling is that it is all about control and having the information in the Feds hands . Not that I am going to do anything wrong or illegal but I really think they (Feds) will break the law sooner then I will .

That is the Tin-Foil hat guy speaking
 
#25 ·
First , understand something .... a Sheriff is an elected official, he's not like a Police Chief that is hired by a City. As such, the Sheriff is not subject to an elected City Council and can't be fired for political reasons or agendas of the City Council.

NO local authorities ... State, County, City .... are obligated to enforce a Fedl Law , or a Fedl Order of any kind. If they believe the law being enforced in general is unconstitutional, they are not probably as likely to assist in enforcing it. So, what happens may well depend upon the area and who's in office, etc..

Many Sheriff's across the Country have said, they will not ever confiscate guns and aren't coming for them, no matter what. Some States have laws that make It illegal for a Fedl Agent to try to enforce a law that the State deems unconstitutional .

Now.... from there, the Feds would be the one's with any records. Even if there was a NICS check ... so what ? I mean really, when you are talking older guns especially... many of them have passed on thru estates, sold in private sales, etc..... so if no NICS checks were done thru an FFL on the gun since then ..... who knows where it is, it could be anywhere with anyone. Could have had 10 private sales since then, could have been stolen, could have been destroyed when confiscated in a criminal case, could have been deemed unfunctional and gotten rid of.

They come looking for a gun you owned 20 yrs ago ... good luck, you may truthfully have no clue where it is, if you sold it in a private sale years ago. It could have gone thru several hands since then.

IF they ever actually did try to confiscate them ALL ... I think many would be resisting and it would be the Civil War II. But, lets say that's not true ..... that didn't happen ...... there is no way they could locate and find ALL guns... nor who had them in many States. Those States that have FOID cards and you have to have a license for every gun you have, then the State knows what you have, or someone is keeping it illegally per the laws of that State... which is quite possible.

A guy in some smaller town in England outside of London, bought a house this last year. The new owner wanted to get rid of the plaster and slat walls... and redo the whole inside. When he tore out one section ...... he found several WWII type rifles that were treated and wrapped up and had been hidden in the walls ..... guessing it occurred when England out-lawed all guns. The new owner .....rushed straight to the Police Station and reported it , so he didn't get in trouble ... and they of course confiscated them. Sounds like someone wasn't going to give up the guns they had, and didn't .
 
#28 ·
Purchased prior to 1968 and likely wont be any record of it. Back then you could walk in Sears or Montgomery Wards and purchase without much more than the money to pay for it. Anything purchased after 68 and you filled out any Govt Form they will have it on record somewhere.

They may "know" of some of them but there are plenty of guns in the US owned by law abiding folks that are 100% legal and 100% unknown to big brother.




I Live For Myself and I Answer to No One.
 
#33 ·
Absolutely correct. I started working for a business when I was 13, had done lots of work prior to that but for individuals, farm work, etc.
When I was 14, I walked into a Western Auto and bought a .22 rifle I had saved up for. The guy wanted to call my father to verify it was really OK with him that I bought it. I kept telling the guy, it's my money... not his. LOL My father told them that I had talked to him and had told me it was OK with him.... and then told them , so sell him the rifle. And I walked home with it under my arm.

Have no clue what happened to that rifle. Traded my grandfather at one point for something, and what he did with it ... I have no clue. 2 yrs later my grandfather died and I think my uncle took it. Don't know if it even still exists, or is sitting in someone's closet somewhere. If I did know, I would go buy it off of them.
 
#29 ·
Sounds like a good place for me would be with my KY brothers and sisters , but i am sure on the many Fed road-blocks set up on my way to KY in a SHTF scenerio I would end up losing the only gun i have .

In the state of Maryland you have 72 hours to notify the state of lost or stolen guns , another way to try and keep a handle on things for big brother . I also think our Government is so incompetent that it would mess up most things . And I wonder if they have the manpower and how many LEO's would go for this . What is the precentage of hard-core officers that would enforce ????
 
#31 ·
They come looking for a gun you owned 20 yrs ago ... good luck, you may truthfully have no clue where it is, if you sold it in a private sale years ago. It could have gone thru several hands since then.
Exactly.

Thus the push for Universal Background Checks...to fix that little truth right there. It's the frog in the boiling pot of water that our kids wont even think twice about.

Heck, half of our membership here isn't smart enough to see that one coming. To them its still about the "keeping guns from criminals" mantra that we hear everyday.
 
#38 ·
In most states there is no 'database' of who owns guns. The 4473 most people fill out is stored in hard-copy format in the backroom of the LGS where it was purchased.

One county in NC did have gun registration, but was overturned by a change in the gun laws, and after some haggling with gun rights groups and advocates, even that database was destroyed.
 
#39 ·
Glad i don't own guns, just here 10 years now, purely for research.
 
#40 ·
The 4473 most people fill out is stored in hard-copy format in the backroom of the LGS where it was purchased.
Sounds good, it used to be that way. Now you are issued a NICS transaction number which IS in a database. Like it or not, that is reality.


There are only two reasons to register anything. One is to tax. The other is to confiscate. And NICS is nothing more than the politically correct word for "registration". They are getting away with it because most people aren't smart enough to figure it out.
 
#43 ·
I don't worry about confiscation. But, I do see the gov coming after militias, gun clubs & dealers. My cousin made national news a couple of years ago when a gun from his pawnshop was used to kill someone in IL. He was sued and the feds attempted to close him down. Fortunately, he did everything right and he walked away and remains in business. But, it cost him over $1MIL to fight the civil suits and the ATF.

The real tact I see coming is- trying to financially ruin all businesses in the firearm industry by regulation, taxation and bogus lawsuits. Then, the only ones left standing are the people who are also ready to take the country back and finally rid our nation of all the Constitutional eroding that's been allowed to happen. The way I see it is this November may be the last chance we have at peaceful course correction. Otherwise, economic destruction will drive us down towards such mass civil unrest, hope may be all but lost.


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