Not ALL of the VT Victims Died Like Sheep

Not ALL of the VT Victims Died Like Sheep

This is a discussion on Not ALL of the VT Victims Died Like Sheep within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The first of the Norris Hall second-floor classrooms Cho attacked was probably the Advanced Hydrology class in Norris Hall, Room 206. The class had 15 ...

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Thread: Not ALL of the VT Victims Died Like Sheep

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Not ALL of the VT Victims Died Like Sheep

    The first of the Norris Hall second-floor classrooms Cho attacked was probably the Advanced Hydrology class in Norris Hall, Room 206.
    The class had 15 registered students. Chang-Min Park, a survivor, did not hear gunfire prior to Cho's entrance, suggesting that Norris 206 was the first class attacked by Cho. Nine students died and four students are known to have survived. The professor, G. V. Loganathan, died. Graduate student Waleed Shaalan, although seriously wounded, saved three other students by distracting the assailant upon his return and was fatally shot.

    Next was at Norris Hall Room 204, where Professor Librescu's Solid Mechanics course was in session. Of the 23 registered students, one died and eight are known to have survived. Professor Liviu Librescu saved all but one of his students by shielding the door and was fatally shot. The survivors credit their survival to Librescu. Caroline Merrey, a senior, believed that "I donít think I would be here if it wasn't for him". Third came the attack on the Elementary German class in Norris Hall Room 207. The class had 15 registered students. Of them, 4 died and 5 are known to have survived. The instructor, Christopher James "Jamie" Bishop, was killed by a gunshot wound to the head. After Cho's initial entry, Katelyn Carney, Derek O'Dell, Trey Perkins, and Erin Sheehan barricaded the door of Room 207, the German class and attended to the wounded. Perkins used his clothing to stop bleeding in wounded students. Cho returned minutes later and O'Dell and Carney prevented him from re-entering the room on two separate occasions. Both O'Dell and Carney were injured; O'Dell was already wounded in the right arm during Cho's successful entry into Room 207. During Cho's first re-entry attempt, he wounded Carney in the hand and Kevin Sterne, another survivor, in the thigh twice. Cho's second re-entry attempt, which occurred two minutes later, resulted in no injuries.

    Sheehan recalled that there were only two students absent from the class that day. She said that only four of the survivors (including herself, Perkins, O'Dell, and Carney) were able to leave the room on their own, including the two who were injured.

    Student Nikolas Macko described to BBC News his experience at the center of the shootings. He had been attending an issues-in-scientific-computing mathematics class (near the German class) and heard gunshots in the hallway. At least three people in the classroom, including Zach Petkewicz, barricaded the door using a table. At one point, Macko said, the shooter attempted to open the classroom door and then shot twice into the room; one shot hit a podium; the other went out the window. The shooter reloaded and fired into the door, but the bullet did not penetrate into the room. Macko stated there were "many, many shots" fired.

    Final classroom attacked: Intermediate French, in Norris Hall, Room 211. Of the 22 registered students, 11 died and 5 are known to have survived. The instructor, Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, also perished. Upon hearing gunfire in neighboring classrooms, Couture-Nowak and the students failed an attempt to barricade the room. After Cho shot Couture-Nowak and several students, he left the room and then later returned around ten minutes after he left. During the second episode, Cho walked down the rows shooting students multiple times. Matthew La Porte, an Air Force ROTC student, is reported to have attempted to tackle Cho from behind but was fatally injured in the attempt. Clay Violand, a survivor of Norris 211, said that he was the only student in the room to escape injury. Therefore, four of the five known survivors in Norris 211 sustained injuries and survived. Cho committed suicide in Norris 211. After Cho's death, Violand removed a body obstructing the door, allowing police to account for the living and dead.

    Note that those in the Norris Hall massacre were mostly undergraduates, many being freshmen just a year out of high school. ROTC officer cadets of that age wouldn't yet have even attended their first summer camp orientation, let along their advanced branch training, to include jump school and/or the Ranger course for future Infantry branch officers. But LaPorte had been picked for AF ROTC Special Operations Prep Training, and had learned the attitude if not the techniques; he'd also spent several years at a military prer academy. He may not have been a sheepdog yet, but he was a tiger cub, at least.

    At least one member of the Corps of Cadets was killed, and at least one student was a prior-service military cadet, so they weren't all sheep.

    ExSoldier's note:I got my army commission in ROTC. I was branched Infantry with an eventual branch transfer to Armor. I've always been a sheepdog my entire ADULT life, but I knew a lot of cadets who got their commissions and served in combat service support positions as sheep and sheep they remain today. That's OKAY! As long as the service is honorable and they did the job, I have no issues with personality of the individual. If the cadet was killed undertaking any sort of action either in a proactive or defensive manner, they qualify as sheepdog. But to be killed standing still in submission is .... sheep. Sorry, that's just the way we've raised our kids. It's a mindset that must change.

    Some of them, yeah. But not all. And it looks like a couple of them, like Matt La Porte, did their very best and saved a few lives, at least. And another lesson: after encountering that serious resistance, Cho then gave up and killed himself, though he still had ammunition remaining.

    But those who gave their lives did not waste their lives if they helped even one other survive:


    Several people tried to help others during the attack, including:

    *Professor Liviu Librescu held the door of his classroom, Room 204, shut while Cho attempted to enter it. Librescu was able to prevent the shooter from entering the classroom until his students had escaped through the windows, but was eventually shot five times and killed.

    *Jocelyne Couture-Nowak tried to save the students in her classroom, Room 211, after looking Cho in the eye in the hallway. Colin Goddard, one of the five known survivors of the French class, told his family that Couture-Nowak ordered her students to the back of the class for their safety and made a fatal attempt to barricade the door.

    *In Room 206, Waleed Shaalan, a Ph.D. student in civil engineering and teaching assistant from Zagazig, Egypt, though badly wounded, distracted Cho from a nearby student after the shooter had returned to the room. Shaalan was shot a second time and died.

    *Also in Room 206, Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan protected fellow student Guillermo Colman by diving on top of him; Colman's various accounts make it unclear whether this act was intentional or the involuntary result of being shot. Multiple gunshots killed Lumbantoruan, but Colman was protected by Lumbantoruan's body.

    *Student Zach Petkewicz barricaded the door of Room 205 with a large table, while Cho shot several times through the door. No one in that classroom was killed.

    *Katelyn Carney, Derek O'Dell, and their friends barricaded the door of Room 207, the German class, after the first attack and attended to the wounded. Cho returned minutes later, but O'Dell and Carney prevented him from re-entering the room. Both were injured.

    *Matthew Joseph La Porte, an Air Force ROTC student, is reported to have attempted to tackle Cho from behind but was fatally injured in the attempt.

    *Hearing the commotion on the floor below, Kevin Granata and another professor, Wally Grant, brought 20 students from a nearby classroom into an office, where the door could be locked, on the third floor of Norris Hall. He and Grant then went downstairs to investigate. They were both shot by Cho. Grant was wounded and survived, but Granata died from his injuries. None of the students locked in Granata's office were injured.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    A lot of good people died and some were real heros. It's too bad one or more of these heros were not able to stop Cho. One or two students with a CCW and armed could have stopped Cho with a single shot before the death rate got that high.

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    Member Array mrchun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    *Hearing the commotion on the floor below, Kevin Granata and another professor, Wally Grant, brought 20 students from a nearby classroom into an office, where the door could be locked, on the third floor of Norris Hall. He and Grant then went downstairs to investigate. They were both shot by Cho. Grant was wounded and survived, but Granata died from his injuries. None of the students locked in Granata's office were injured.
    Oh man, I hadn't heard this before. I feel just as deeply as the next guy about what happened at Virgina Tech, and I'm certainly not trying to be an armchair quarterback, but I don't understand the reasoning in investigating gunshots while unarmed. I wasn't there, so I don't know... but still. I certainly don't mean any disrespect to Mr. Grenata, but I think a valuable lesson can be learned from what happened once he left the safety of his office.

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    Senior Member Array Slim_45's Avatar
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    Oh man the more u hear of this story the more horrible u realize it was, i hope we never have to hear of this again. Oh wait to late, i heard on the news tonight that they captured a kid in Traverse City, MI that said he was going to "do it just like" the VT massacre. This kid is only 15 years old. I sure hope we dont see anymore of this (but probaly will) @ least they got this one before hand....

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    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin_glock View Post
    Oh wait to late, i heard on the news tonight that they captured a kid in Traverse City, MI that said he was going to "do it just like" the VT massacre. This kid is only 15 years old.
    Same thing happened in Idaho Falls, ID but a 16 year old kid.
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    I spent 2 years in NROTC here before I had to withdrawl from the program. I don't doubt that if any of my former class mates were in the classrooms they would have done what they could in such a situation to reduce casualties, if such an event happened here.
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    ExSoldier,

    A very excellent and moving commentary on the events! So many lessons to be learned. I salute your recognition of the Sheepdogs.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    IIRC Granata was former Army...

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    What I don't get is why none of the classroom doors were locked or had locks on them in the first place. They have to start building schools schools with security in mind. No choke points in hallways, and locks on all doors, so when closed, they are locked (you can go out, but no one can come in).

    I saw on TV that some guy over in Europe created bullet proof desks. That way they can flip them over and use them as cover. Can't be any worse then using your math book.

    For every classroom I go to at college I'm always thinking, what would I do if I heard gun shots.

    I have always thought this way...I remember one day in high school, they forgot to say "This is a drill" part of a lock down drill. I was about 2 seconds away from smashing the window with a chair. The chair was in my hand, But they did come back on the intercom and say that it was a drill before I reached the window. Good thing though, I bet they are expensive. Everyone else was in the fetal position in the corner ( , But don't worry the school tells us to do that, so it must be right?!?).

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    What I don't get is why none of the classroom doors were locked or had locks on them in the first place. They have to start building schools schools with security in mind. No choke points in hallways, and locks on all doors, so when closed, they are locked (you can go out, but no one can come in).
    On campus here the buildings built during the late 60's/70's were designed to keep out protesters, and were built with security in mind from that manner. Underground tunnels connecting buildings, small windows (maybe to small for some to jump out of), strong doors to the outside. Designed for threats from outside, not within. I don't think I have seen a classroom door with a lock, and they almost all open outward into the hallway (fire safety is the reason for that I believe, so everyone can get out quicker) meaning that they can't be effectively blocked.

    Locks on all the doors all the time would cause a lot of problems for students too, college campuses by nature need to be open and accessable. Security does need to be beefed up, I completely agree with that. But my campus probably has over 100 classroom buildings, some almost a century old, and cost of all the renovations would also be extraordinary (not saying it isn't worth it though).
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  11. #11
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Doors on public buildings do have to open out, it is fire code and building code.
    We are getting away from the point I think by putting locks on all the doors, Cho shot through at least one door and maimed/killed someone, locks would achieve little there. Also locks on classrooms would enable people like Cho to 'hole up' or even allow sexual predators to trap people in the rooms after class.
    No, the point is that we need CCW holders to be able to carry on campus.

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    My high-school students asked about this as well. On college campuses, most professors do not have permanent classroom assignments, as they do in a secondary, middle, elementary, or primary school. They may teach one class in "Calhoun 322," another in "Garland 134," and a third in "Stevenson 103." Classrooms on college classrooms often do not have locks on them so keys do not need to be issued to the fifteen or so educators who will use them every week.

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    Thanks Ex-Soldier. That was good to hear what some of the people there did to try to stop or minimize the evil attacks by this demon.

    If only they could have fought fire with fire so to speak.
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    There was at least one St. Bernard in the mix. A student named Nichole White was found with another student's ID in her hand. White's family and friends believe she was trying to give medical aid or comfort to the other student. White was an EMT with the Isle of Wight Volunteer Rescue Squad in Smithfield, VA. http://www.iwvrs.com/index.html

    I don't know how true this supposition may be, but if it gives the family some comfort, that's fine with me.
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    Senior Member Array czman2006's Avatar
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    I wish someone had stopped this madman before he murdered so many but please don't call them "sheep". These were college kids who in their worst nightmare didn't imagine this could ever happen to them. I understand your point and appreciate all the other info but the term "sheep" just seems misplaced to me. JMHO, hope this doesn't offend.
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