June 13th, 2007 10:59 PM
As far as the homeowner knew they were criminals, and if they raided a home without a warrant valid for that address that SHOULD be a crime. Negligence as an excuse for violating someone's 4th Amendment rights is pretty sad. Also, it is entirely possible that the homeowner could have been shot or killed, especially if he thought his family was in danger of their lives and reacted accordingly.
Originally Posted by OPFOR
I don't blame the cop in the hotseat, I blame the supervisor who allowed it to happen.
It is not illegal to make a mistake. This phrase is unvarnished rhetoric, and nothing more. To the cops on the scene, they were being physically resisted while serving a high-risk warrant. This warrants (excuse the pun) appropriate force. For all the bluster and bravado on here about who would shoot whom for what reasons, it seems rather hypocritical to disparage a COP, on duty, serving a felony warrant, for using limited force to defend himself.
Well, if they keep randomly kicking in doors maybe they will find them. Perhaps they should get a warrant for the whole neighborhood. Even Joe drug dealer has rights, and every time a warrant is served for no result those rights are infringed upon to no purpose. Cops shouldn't be granted a warrant because they THINK a crime might be taking place. Warrants should only be used when they are pretty darn sure, and only when there is no other way to gather the evidence they seek.
The fact that there was nothing found at the correct address has absolutely nothing to do with the case at hand. I'd wager that there WERE drugs somewhere in that neighborhood - does that justify the raid any more than a lack of drugs in one apartment condemns it?
As a matter of fact, as a retired Soldier who has seen combat in two wars I've done just that... as well as responded to emergencies as a volunteer firefighter. In both situations getting an address or a grind coordinate correct was a life or death matter. Determining a 10-digit grid is somewhat more complex than reading a street address. When you're calling for CAS or artillery you'd better get that grid right.
Yes, they should have checked and double-checked the address. That is the one and only point here. I can’t defend this lapse – it was a mistake, pure and simple, and one that was avoidable. Now, let’s see you put your job (and freedom, according to some posters) on the line at your job every day for something as simple as misreading one number.
They were guilty or negligent. It is part of a cops sworn duty to uphold the constitutions of both the US and his state. They failed in this duty, which is far more important than catching a badguy.
This contradicts your “not anti-cop” stance, to some extent… It automatically assumes – based on nothing more than a preliminary report – that someone
is guilty, and already adjudicates the punishment. I’m sorry, but I don’t make judgments of fact and of intent based on so little information.
I don't doubt it was an error. However a salesman, or even a firefighter, who goes to the wrong address is making a mistake. A cop who kicks in the wrong door is violating his oath and someone's constitutional rights.
I do not think that you are anti-cop, but it certainly doesn’t sound like you are willing to give them the simple benefits of the laws they serve each day. Laws like “innocent until proven guilty,” for instance. To be judge, jury, and executioner based on one news report is about as “anti” as they get…
The officers, perhaps not. The Sergeant of Lieutenant in charge of the situation, perhaps so. Also, in my opinion, a warrant for a address different than the one you are raiding is just as good as no warrant at all.
And, of course, they did
have a warrant. If the warrant turns out to based on falsified or poorly documented info, then you may have a point. If the cops used excessive force (and it certainly doesn’t sound like it, based just on the two news items posted here), then criminal charges are in order. If it was simply the misreading of a number, I’d be hard pressed to fire one or more otherwise exemplary officers (assuming that this is the case) for what amounts to an honest, if unfortunate, mistake.
LEOs need to be held to a high standard in many situations. They are only human, but this wasn't a mere inconsequential error, it was a mistake that caused them to violate their oath and fail in a major aspect of their job... upholding the law and defending the constitutions they are sworn to support. It also could have cost a citizen their life.
All I can say in closing is this: there seems to be quite a few people here are very quick to make very severe judgments based on very little information. Putting aside this case for a moment, that’s simply a bad way to make decisions….
Last edited by tanksoldier; June 13th, 2007 at 11:07 PM.
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
June 14th, 2007 12:51 AM
It doesn't seem like many of you are bringing g up the fact that not only did they screw up the address and terrorize innocent people, but also used excessive force by kicking the old man in his testicles.
Now, we all know and should be able to agree they didn't intend on kicking the door down of innocent people. But the LEO who kick the guy in his groin WAS intentional.
Of all the LEO training I have learned about, that was never in any protocol.
I think that right there shows what caliber of Officers we are dealing with.
Primary Carry Gun: Sig Sauer 229~R (.40cal w/ Golden Saber JHP's)
June 14th, 2007 01:15 AM
This is not an issue of who has "never made a mistake" in his life.
Originally Posted by OPFOR
A raid based on a warrant is something that comes about after numerous deliberate steps. It is during that time, during all the deliberation, that EVERY SINGLE THING about what the plan consists of should be gone over five or six times.
It's not as though they conduct the raid at a moment's notice. First they come to get information about the suspects. Then they have to detail what they want to search for, and where. Then they have to get a judge to review it and approve the warrant. Now, if the judge is just rubber-stamping everything, that's bad, too.
By the time a judge has issued the warrant, there should be absolutely, unequivocally NO question about the exact door that they intend to pound down, and who lives behind it.
You may say, "Jeff, have you never made a mistake," but my answer is that No, I don't make mistakes on things that I have checked five, six, seven times over. If you ask me to do something and tell me I have 30 seconds to get it done, I may well screw up and make mistakes. This situation is not analogous to most personal "mistakes" people make. The mistake here was egregious, and endangered lives. It's not as forgivable as overpouring milk into a glass, or backing your car into a sign pole. There should be plenty of time to vet every single point about a raid like this before it is conducted. And if there's not enough time to make sure you're able to do it safely with 100% knowledge that you won't accidentally raid an innocent party's home, I guess you gotta just let this one get away for a time.
Last edited by peacefuljeffrey; June 14th, 2007 at 01:31 AM.
June 14th, 2007 01:23 AM
I tried to stay out of this, but I just have to point out that no one here knows anything about what happened that night. Something went wrong, but we dont know the details. What we do know is very vague here say. I find it funny that we are quick to jump on the media when they make errors and mistakes with a gun story, a topic we all know something about. When the topic is something else, we all believe that the media's story is fact, and pass judgement when we really know nothing of what really happened.
Imagine what this story looks like to someone who does know a thing or two about the nuts and bolts of raids search and seizure law etc. I'll give you a hint... its a peice of crap that is missing a whole lot of important information about the facts and factors of the case.
Also, it is clear that only a few here know anything about police work, raids, what is and isnt allowed. Reading a outdated book or two, watching Matlock, Andy, CSI or what ever peice of garbage is on the TV does not make one educated in the subject of police work.
There, I'm done ranting. Flame on if you wish, I'll take it for what its worth.
June 14th, 2007 01:38 AM
Oh, Sixto, Sixto... No one knows? Something went wrong? Only a few people know anything about police work? Apparently the fine officers who raided this place aren't part of that knowledgeable few!
"None who have always been free can understand
the terrible fascinating power of the hope of freedom
to those who are not free."
June 14th, 2007 01:41 AM
I think that although I speak for myself only, here, that others will agree with me when I say that I don't have to hear much beyond, "The police intended to raid X address, but instead ended up bursting through the door of Y address," to know that some unforgivable error was committed.
Really. What mitigating excuse can justify that? We can forget about whether that is what happened in this particular case and just ask it as a hypothetical, anywhere-anytime question: "What thing or things can possibly be used to satisfactorily justify police making a mistake about the location of a warrant to be served, and bursting in violently on totally innocent people who were never intended to be the targets of a warrant/raid?"
Since I'm sitting here unable to imagine a single thing to rationalize such an event, I am asking, begging, someone to proffer any examples.
June 14th, 2007 01:41 AM
You missed my point completely. I was making the point that this thread has degraded to the point of worthless jibber jabber, as we are debating on assumptions and a very vague newspaper story.
Originally Posted by Mjolnir
Last edited by SIXTO; June 14th, 2007 at 01:57 AM.
Reason: left out a "e"
"Just blame Sixto"
June 14th, 2007 01:44 AM
Or don't, please.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
These threads offer little in the way of discussion, just a lot of paranoia from people that dislike cops.
Got old a long time ago.
June 14th, 2007 02:03 AM
And then there are the people in law enforcement, who take justifiable angst on the part of civilians who have witnessed cops doing wrong, as them being "anti cop."
I am not anti cop. I am anti misuse-of-authority. I am anti incompetence. I am anti carelessness.
It is unreasonable to say that anyone who speaks out against cops acting irresponsibly where the people's rights are concerned must "dislike cops."
Actually, I like cops. We have many of the same interests a lot of the time. Guns/gear/equipment. Standardized procedures/Standardized communications. (As a pilot, I enjoy those things.) Bad guys being removed from society's midst. Seeing Good triumph.
I like plenty of cops. Orange County, CA Sheriff Mike Carona has earned a huge amount of my respect. (See why Here. Click on the video.)
In the same video, you will see why I detest L.A. County Sheriff Leroy Baca, who is a political fraud, bureaucrat, and anti-gun demagogue without a brain in his head.
Just like civilians can either earn the trust of a cop or earn his distrust, so it goes with cops earning trust or distrust from civilians. Just because I can criticize certain actions of certain cops doesn't mean I "dislike cops." I like them plenty -- the good ones -- thankyewverymuch.
June 14th, 2007 02:07 AM
June 14th, 2007 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by 0.02
A police officer's responsibility is (or SHOULD be):
1. Uphold and defend the US Constitution and the constitution of their state.
2. Uphold the law.
3. Catch bad guys.
In that order.
The officers in this story not only failed the least important of actually catching the bad guys, but the two much more important above that.
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
June 14th, 2007 05:33 AM
The question that really underlies it all is this: Just how does a group of guys led ostensibly by someone with a brain end up raiding the absolute wrong residence?
I could understand it, if maybe someone had switched the number plates on the apartment doors. But even then, INTEL should be done beforehand, even if it's just sending a plainclothes guy there some day posing as a bible salesman, to verify where they'll be going when they go. Something.
Do we know if they were even in the correct building? Was the place they were supposed to raid in the same building or complex or what have you? Or did they go to a totally wrong address? I'd like to know just how much they missed by...
June 14th, 2007 05:40 AM
Here's something I noticed.
You know how when they arrest someone for having a gun, they always make sure to say stuff like, "Mr. Jones was found to be in possession of a loaded semi-automatic handgun..."
When it's a civilian, the media play up the story to sound as nasty as possible.
Here, a police raid team bursts through the door of an apartment in which there are multiple residents (not suspects, just residents); flash-bangs are used in the entry (damaging property); and no mention is made of the certain fact that LOADED GUNS were no doubt pointed at the faces of the occupants during this debacle!
Am I incorrect? Is it possible that the entry was made by busting in a door and using flash-bang grenades, but then the officers would not have loaded guns with live rounds chambered pointed at anyone they found inside?
Yet not a word about that in the story.
You think about how close to death you are when a cop bursts in, full of adrenaline (anyone denying that they are thus when they're on such an operation?), and thinks he's come to the lair of a bunch of drug criminals, and is pointing a gun in your face??
I'd say a "hair's bredth" is like a bridge cable compared to the margin between life and death, there.
The story should have borne the headline, "Victims of police mistake nearly killed". That's more accurate, don't you think?
June 14th, 2007 10:18 AM
Come on now Jeffery, your getting out there now. Before I get fully drawn into this "debate", heres my disclaimer;
There is no doubt that the LEO's did a poor job at planning this "raid" and also no doubt that what took place was unfortunate. They should have taken much more precaution before the door was kicked in. That said, stuff happens.
I will call you a liar if you tell me you never make mistakes at your job, or your company never mishandles situations. Human error will be an issue as long as we are human.
There are a bunch of things that could have happened along the line that resulted in the wrong apartment entered. Numbers missing on the door, names on the wrong mailboxes, the target moved new people moved in, someone said the door first on left and meant the right, the list can go on and on. We dont even know if there was time to plan or if it was something that needed done in a hurry.
June 14th, 2007 01:49 PM
Informants lie, and as Sixto has said already drug houses move, sometimes when you least want them to.
I suppose that the world would be better if we had robots doing LE?
Infallible and without any chance of misinterpreting the law.
Of course you would definitely get a ticket when speeding then too, even if you flashed your 'CCW Deputy' badge.
By Tom G in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: June 2nd, 2010, 08:34 PM
By nightsonge in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Last Post: May 23rd, 2010, 01:32 PM
By Rmac58 in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
Last Post: September 17th, 2008, 11:21 PM
By Malazan in forum General Firearm Discussion
Last Post: December 20th, 2007, 07:32 PM
Search tags for this page
bad police raids 2013
house kick to groin
police invade wrong home
police kick man in the groin caught on tape
police raid wro ng home
police raid wrong address
police raid wrong house
police raid wrong house kick man in groin
police raids in annapolis
policewoman kick suspect groin
real policewoman kicks groin
Click on a term to search for related topics.
» DefensiveCarry Sponsors