Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight..Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit Live Targets

This is a discussion on Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight..Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit Live Targets within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; As reported by WCBS2 (NY): May 23, 2007 6:48 am US/Eastern CBS 2 Exclusive: Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit ...

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Thread: Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight..Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit Live Targets

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight..Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit Live Targets

    As reported by WCBS2 (NY):

    May 23, 2007 6:48 am US/Eastern

    CBS 2 Exclusive: Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight
    Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit Live Targets
    NYPD 2005 Firearms Discharge Report

    Lou Young
    Reporting

    (CBS) NEW YORK CBS 2 HD has uncovered some disturbing statistics out of police headquarters. A confidential firearms report indicates a problem with gunfire accuracy in the NYPD.

    It’s a troubling question -- when police officers shoot can they hit what they're shooting at?

    Many officers find success at the range, but experts and now the statistics indicate there's a big difference between hitting a paper target and firing on the job.

    On the firing range, New York City police officers are required to put 80 percent of their shots on target. In the field, they are considerably less accurate even as they shoot more bullets per incident.

    A confidential NYPD report indicates an increase in every category of shots fired on the job, accompanied by a disturbing drop in accuracy.

    Of 276 police bullets fired in gunfights in 2005 only 23 found their target -- an 8 percent accuracy rate. Comparing the trend to the year before we see gunfight bullet volume up 200 percent, while the accuracy has deteriorated significantly.

    "My god, that's pretty poor ... pretty sad," firearms instructor John Parmerton said.

    CBS 2 HD brought the report to Parmerton, a retired state trooper who also teaches many city cops. He said they complain that their on-the-job training isn't good enough.

    "Not good enough for the weapons that they're carrying and not good enough for the confrontations that are occurring on the street," Parmerton said.

    "The weapon" is a 9-millimeter handgun, first designed as a military sidearm capable of pumping out tremendous firepower in short order.

    Law enforcement experts say that giving all cops such devastating firepower was a political decision whose success or failure rests on the level of training.

    CBS 2 HD asked Robert McCrie, a John Jay College professor of criminal justice, if he thinks it was a mistake to switch to semi-automatic weapons exclusively.

    "I think it was a mistake, but it's very hard to say to law enforcement we don't think you should have firepower up to the level of the criminal element," McCrie said.

    The stats, in fact, show that during gunfights criminals are more than twice as accurate as NYPD officers with these semi-automatic weapons. Seventeen suspects fired 72 bullets in 2004, hitting officers 14 times -- an accuracy rate of 19 percent compared to the NYPD's 8 percent.

    Parmerton said the department's weapons instructors have been turned into paper pushers.

    "Because of the sheer volume, because of the requirement to get as many bodies through the place as possible they've become target posters and line callers," Parmerton said. "It's so bad that specialty units like Emergency Services Unit, like Organized Crime Control Bureau, like Counter Terrorism Unit have all extended their firearms training over and above what the rank and file -- the uniformed squads -- get because they realize it's inadequate to put their officers on the street."

    NYPD spokesman Paul Browne dismisses the 2005 figures CBS 2 HD reported as "an anomaly."

    He said city cops shoot less than they used to, but doesn't address the issue of how well they shoot.

    CBS 2 HD asked the NYPD to see 2006 statistics, but we're still waiting for an answer.

    An outside review of NYPD's training program, ordered after the Sean Bell shooting, is expected at the end of next month.

    The story can be found at; http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_142170041.html

    - Janq
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array sheepdog's Avatar
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    He said city cops shoot less than they used to, but doesn't address the issue of how well they shoot.
    Well of course not. Everybody knows how much you practice has no effect on how well you shoot. Paul Browne is obviously a man on his way up in the organization.
    I just want to add in something a lot of people who read that article won't understand-the cop's shots are most often reactive or return fire-shooting done in response to a sudden threat. It is a lot harder to make the shots when you know you are behind the curve and are trying to get ahead while dodging bullets and evaluating responses. It is especially hard if you make it to the range once a year, and lack a degree of competency, and as important, CONFIDENCE in your ability to hit. I have this theory that officers that are sure of the quality of their shooting will try to make up for it with quantity of rounds downrange.
    Comparing hit ratios on paper targets vs. humans-well, that is such common stupidity that it rates no response. I'd say that the common CCW carrier who has had a class beyond basic licensing and has read In Gravest Extreme has about 20 times the ability of a newspaper reporter to understand the dynamics of armed confrontations.
    Last edited by sheepdog; June 17th, 2007 at 11:12 AM.
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    Wow, did they leave some stuff out...like how many times were the cops ambushed by the perps, how owning guns and shooting is unknown to the law abiding peasants of NYC, (where the cops come from), so they WILL practice less, and how the criminal element actually has more experiance in shooting live, moving targets, etc. I would like to see thier discretionary practice. What do they teach at the range, and how often?
    Sounds like a push to get NYPD back into revolvers. THAT would be interesting...
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    "The weapon" is a 9-millimeter handgun, first designed as a military sidearm capable of pumping out tremendous firepower in short order.
    Law enforcement experts say that giving all cops such devastating firepower was a political decision whose success or failure rests on the level of training.
    I think this statement sums up most of the article. Ignorance.

    Yes, of course, I agree that all officers could use more training time. I think all civilians who carry could use more training, too. It's pretty hard to get "too much" training.
    eschew obfuscation

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    +1 Copperknight

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    This sounds like the beginning of a push to take away the police weapons.

    The conclusion from this study is totally invalid. Compare the number of rounds fired in Iraq with the number of actual hits and you will see that there is no correlation between shooting a paper target and actual CQB.

    If the new media gets any dumber.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Misfit View Post
    If the new media gets any dumber.............
    Give it a few days...it gets dumber all the time.
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    Quoted:

    "The weapon" is a 9-millimeter handgun, first designed as a military sidearm capable of pumping out tremendous firepower in short order.

    Law enforcement experts say that giving all cops such devastating firepower was a political decision whose success or failure rests on the level of training.

    CBS 2 HD asked Robert McCrie, a John Jay College professor of criminal justice, if he thinks it was a mistake to switch to semi-automatic weapons exclusively.

    Ok, now I have two questions here:

    1. When discussing a 9mm handgun "pumping out tremendous firepower", shouldn't we all agree, as that is exactly what is supposed to do? I am a firm believer that if a LEO has to pull a firearm and discharge it in th e line of duty, all other recourses have been extinguished! I am sure that the ignorant people that wrote this would love to have the police move to pellet or paintball guns, at least until they find out that you might put an eye out if you shoot someone in the face...

    2. What does switching from a Semi-Automatic to a Revolver have to do with shooting accuracy? I can be just as good, or just as bad shooting a semi or a wheelie. It all depends on practice time.

    Maybe we ought to require all news reporters to stop and show proof of doing their homework before they spit this type of vitriol out.

    My two cents worth...
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    Wink Our hero will solve NYC accuracy problems

    [QUOTE=Sonic Misfit;402203]This sounds like the beginning of a push to take away the police weapons.

    NYPD dosen't need guns. Every one seems to forget that guns are not allowed in NYC. If the BG were to use a gun against the NYPD MR. Bloomberg would File a law suit against this evil person and make him very sorry. Where there is no guns why would the cops need to pratice. I think we need to take away all the police departments weapons due to they are not needed.

  11. #10
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    Other than the media, a big problem is listed below:

    "Because of the sheer volume, because of the requirement to get as many bodies through the place as possible they've become target posters and line callers," Parmerton said.

    "It's so bad that specialty units like Emergency Services Unit, like Organized Crime Control Bureau, like Counter Terrorism Unit have all extended their firearms training over and above what the rank and file -- the uniformed squads -- get because they realize it's inadequate to put their officers on the street."
    One of the problems isn't just in the training, it's the fact that I've met a lot of officers that only want to shoot once or twice a year.

    My father is a retired LEO, and was on the pistol team, he shot as much as he could, a lot of departments don't even have pistol teams anymore.

    I asked a couple of different guys from different depts. why that was.

    Most of the answers astounded me, they usual replied with "If you ever have to shoot someone, and it comes out that your into shooting, the media will have your head" or "Alot of the guys don't like shooting."

    This is by no means a poke at LEOs but law enforment is one of those jobs that needs to be more than just a job, and part of the big picture is that the number of officers saying "It's a living" is going up.

    If the officers really wanted to shoot better, they'd go out and find a range and practice on their own.

    But then again, I can't blame some of them, every time there is a shooting bewteen an officer and a BG, I wonder if one or both will end up getting charged.

    LEO work is something I couldn't do, but I'd darn glad that others can and do.

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    As alluded to in a previous post, it's hard to be accurate when you're ambushed and a study of LEO shootings show that a significant portion of LEO shootings were ambushes, and even if not, many times the perp got the first shot.

    It's difficult to tell if the author had an agenda, or suffers from simple ignorance of his subject matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    It's difficult to tell if the author had an agenda, or suffers from simple ignorance of his subject matter.
    No need to tell one from the other, because the author has both.
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    How many perp fired hits were point blank? I say ban reporters , they spout off without verifying their facts and use emotions instead of common sense to sway the public.
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    LOL - Probably true and he for sure didn't take into account what being shot at does to one's accuracy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    How many perp fired hits were point blank? I say ban reporters , they spout off without verifying their facts and use emotions instead of common sense to sway the public.
    Seems like we could at least sue them for liable or something.
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