I don't even know what to say to this

This is a discussion on I don't even know what to say to this within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bobernet Maybe you're talking about other threads or I missed it here, but who was linking to anti-cop websites? He means my ...

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Thread: I don't even know what to say to this

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet View Post
    Maybe you're talking about other threads or I missed it here, but who was linking to anti-cop websites?

    He means my post #32.

    Here is a handy dandy interactive map showing how many of these raids have resutled in tragedy.
    http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
    You see questioning LEO practices = Not Supporting LEOs in much the same way that questioning the conduct of the Iraq war = Not Supporting our Troops.

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  3. #47
    Member Array bobernet's Avatar
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    So, if he had been a tad quicker, and you a tad slower, you could easily have had .44 lead coming toward you at a high rate of speed.

    Is some marijuana worth your life?

    What if he got to the gun, but you were quick enough to shoot him before he started shooting you? Was the marijuana worth his life?

    That's all I'm saying.

    There is some percentage of bad guys who will shoot cops to avoid going to prison during a normal warrant service. There is some percentage of cops that will accidentally shoot somebody during a normal warrant service.

    But... as soon as you introduce the surprise, fear, adrenaline and speed that a NKW involves, you've just added a whole bunch of people to both percentages above. The LEO sees anyone reaching for a gun as a BG then, whether they are or not. The person on the receiving end sees guys breaking in with guns.

    It's a lot of escalation. I'm not saying NKWs have no place whatsoever, but at least based on what's been posted in *this* case (which is admittedly probably not all the facts) a NKW seems the primary cause of this mistake.

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Bob , neither Op nor i are " selling " no knocks , nor will you find anyone here to sell them , What we are saying is that they are vital as a tool to have . Honestly i kinda get a bit testy on anyone who has never served a warrant ( and by that invaded the privacy of a homeowner looking for something that will literaly fit in the seam of your wife's pantys ) to start speaking to how a search should work.
    Now not that i dont appreciate all input on the issue , but damm man untill you have done it , please refrain from the " command on high " mindset .
    I am glad your execution of the warrant did not result in any inguries to you or the other LEOs. I have not, and most likely never will execute a no-knock warrant. I am a citizen of this nation though and just as I have the right to question the manner in which our troops are deployed I have the right to question the manner in which warrants are served. If one does not want to have to answer questions about what they do for a living then they should not work for the government and should be their own boss. The police have the ability to crush our civil rights on the spot, often accidentally and in very rare circumstances on purpose. For exactly that reason an involved and enlightenned public should know and question their practices.

    Sorry but I do not see the justification for most no-knocks. The only time I could accept one being done for something non-life threatenning is if positive identification of the occupants was made immediately prior to the execution of the warrant. Without that we are just begging for errors to be made that will result in the deaths of both innocent civilians and officers.

    I would appreciate someone explaining why a no-knock is even needed for anything but the "War on Drugs." I consider that to be a farce, no I do not use any, and one of the greatest wastes of government money in history. That is another topic but can at least give some who consider KNW needed some insight into why I fail to see their purpose.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I guess I missed the point--why did the police use a no-knock warrant to recover a PlayStation? Why not arrest the guy on the street and then search his apt?
    Bingo, we have a winner here...

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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I guess I missed the point--why did the police use a no-knock warrant to recover a PlayStation? Why not arrest the guy on the street and then search his apt?
    Because of the circumstances surrounding the case, the ones that don’t make the paper that is trying to get you riled up and sell more copies.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Because of the circumstances surrounding the case, the ones that donít make the paper that is trying to get you riled up and sell more copies.
    Ding! Ding! "News service" is no better than organized prostitution, save that hookers aren't drooling for a good shot of a dead kid.

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Unless you are a terrorist or homicidal maniac, I see no reason for you to have "assault weapons."

    Unless you are an assassin or an armed robber, I see no reason for you to have a concealable handgun.

    Insert any number of bogus arguments here - they are all the same. We as proponents of the 2A should recognize more then anyone that it is NOT the tool, it is the action. Banning a tool because it is intentionally or negligently misused by a few is exactly what we are all here fighting AGAINST. If this case of NKW was bad - prosecute those who committed crimes and leave the tool out of it; just as we ask that criminals be prosecuted for gun crimes and not that guns be prosecuted (and banned) based on criminal actions. Hypocrisy, anyone?
    I know OPFOR said he was out of this thread, and that's fine, but I think something needs to be pointed out about his analogy. That is this:

    The anti-gun non-logic is not defined solely by blaming the tool rather than the user. In fact, one thing they are right about is that guns make the act of killing a person much easier. That's why firearms are the prevalent individual weapon in the world today. They're the best at what they're designed to do. Yes, they're a tool, but a dangerous tool that must be treated with respect.

    The fallacy that anti-gunners slip into is that legally banning a tool from the general public will reduce its use by criminals, who, as we all know, ignore laws by definition. This single fact is what destroys the logic of gun control.

    Now, no-knock warrant service is also a tool, one that is also dangerous, also demands respect and care in its use, and also is very effective. The difference is that police departments tend to follow the laws. If a tool is banned, it doesn't get used.

    Because of this, the no-knock debate is radically different than the gun control debate. Where-as gun control arguments revolve around whether laws would have any effect at all (and constitutionality), the no-knock debate must justify one successful tool over another.

    Simply saying that no-knocks are a tool and should be given "the benefit of the doubt" (essentially) until they are mis-used ignores this completely. Not to mention that one side of this comparison is a god-given right, and the other side is the forcible removal of god-given rights. IMO, that alone merits stronger scrutiny for no-knock warrants than for armed citizens.

    To throw in my other two cents, I have no doubt that there are situations where overwhelming and sudden application of force is needed. Hostage or barricade situations come to mind. But this should be the absolute last resort, used when lives are in imminent danger, much as our CCW's are not our first option for defense. What's that saying? "If your favorite tool is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail." This should apply doubly to police raids.

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Well time to throw in my two cents.

    For the case in general... all I can vouch for is the asinine quality of the N&O here....lots of people just call it the Gruesome Disturber.

    They do tend to have a very very large anti-gun slant, and also are not keen on police officers in general.


    As for the NKW issue. Well not been in one personally but my father/brother have.

    But first some history the officers would of known about.

    See my brother has this habit of getting into "some" trouble from time to time. Then his favorite kind of trouble was Crack/Cocaine/Meth and Illegally modified weapons. (Full auto, sawed off and the like).

    My father has a long history of violence, and assult charges, mostly in self defense but still in the memory of the area Police. (no convictions however)

    Step Mother has a few Arson charges (she burned down my father's home once) and paid a man to break my father's legs (when he came home to find his house burned down)

    Due to all this fun filled history the police decided to issue a NKW in order to nab my brother for all his charges.

    Well they bust in nab my brother and all is well. This is a case where it was used correctly. However the only reason it went well was due to the fact that my father was passed out stoned and never even woke up until the police were over his bed. Had that not been the case plain and simple it would of been a bloodbath. All he would of seen is someone breaking into his home (most likely someone my brother had ticked off) and like anyone else would of attempted to defend himself.

    NKW are an ugly business. I believe they do have their place, and in the story I posted that was one of them. But mistakes do happen, and when they do most often the Good Guys die be they Police or Citizens.

    Where should the limits be then....Honestly I do not know, and I hope to never have any personal involvement of the entire matter.

    Just my $.02
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  10. #54
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Good God. I can't think of anything to say. These cops seem to have been out of control.
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  11. #55
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    My question is why you would have someone on a "No-Knock" breach team not be able to tell the differance between a ram and a gunshot. If he was inside the house why were they using the ram? if he was outside why shoot through a door when you know your buddies are inside?

    This cop should not be given a gun if he doens't know when to properly utilize it.
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  12. #56
    Member Array fishmaycraft's Avatar
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    Once again it goes back to him having his finger on the trigger before they breached the doorway and he was on target. When you hear sudden loud noises, your instinct is to flinch, when he flinched his finger was on the trigger.......bang.......

    FMC

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