August 16th, 2007 09:18 PM
You left out the most important part. It's supposed to go, "Hey guys, hold my beer and watch this."
Originally Posted by Protect
August 17th, 2007 01:16 AM
Speaking of training, or lack of it...this is an excerpt of a letter from a deputy that was sent to Frontsight, the training school. They sent it out as part of another marketing campaign.
I'm a Deputy Sheriff and Union Leader representing almost 500 law enforcement officers.
In my well known and heavily populated county in California, we are only required to qualify with our duty weapon twice per year. During the qualifications we only shoot 40-50 rounds and the entire "training session" lasts less than 10 minutes. We are required to qualify with shotguns and AR-15 patrol rifles only once per year.
Within the last two months I have witnessed the following:
A Deputy assigned to patrol needed to bring her patrol car in for service. Per department policy, the patrol shotgun needed to be removed before bringing the vehicle to the motor pool. I watched as she was unable to unload a standard Remington 870 pump shotgun. She then asked for help from a second deputy, who was also unable to show her how to unload the shotgun. To prevent an accidental discharge of the weapon, I stepped in an assisted her.
After a gang shooting, a Sheriff's Sergeant deployed an AR-15 patrol rifle in the subsequent search for the suspect. Once the suspect was in custody, I watched as the Sergeant, obviously unfamiliar with his weapon, asked two other Deputies how to make the weapon safe. I again stepped in to prevent an accidental discharge. However, when I attempted to unload the weapon, I discovered the Sergeant had failed to load a round in the chamber. He had searched for a gang shooting suspect with an unloaded weapon! If he had needed to use the weapon, it wouldn't have fired and the result could have been tragic.
As an elected union leader, I meet regularly with our Sheriff. I have expressed my concern for the lack of firearms training, but due to budget reasons, I don't see any policy changes in the future.
Last edited by Whyveear; August 17th, 2007 at 03:25 AM.
August 20th, 2007 12:53 PM
I'm probably most definitely on the other side of the fence from most folks here but I've almost always been totally against using dummy and training weapons. Reasons? The big one being an issue of people becoming Lax or disrespectful of the inherent danger of the weapon. The other big one which plays into my first reason is lack of proper fear and respect. If you train with a dummy gun most likely you've trained yourself to not be as afraid or careful as you should be. If you practice with the real thing...you learn to be VERY VERY careful.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
For some strange reason, most folks don't see the difference. I know if I see a red gun in training.. I'm not worried if I screw up or if my technique isn't perfect or if I'm "unsafe". On the other hand...a real 1911 goes a long way to making you feel the need for a "drawer-check".
Either way this guy should be a darwin award nominee. I don't feel remorse for that kind of stupid. I find it hard to believe he wasn't taught most basic safety rules. He either didn't pay attention or completely ignored all of them. Sounds like it went good for the rest of us.
At the end of the day you have to ask yourself some questions. One being, Do you really want the kind of fool that puts a gun to his own head and says "look it's unloaded!" and pulls the trigger, in a position of possibly needing to use that firearm to protect you or yours?
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
August 20th, 2007 06:38 PM
I don't know about that.
If you train with a dummy gun most likely you've trained yourself to not be as afraid or careful as you should be
I don't know of anyone that would purposely jump out in front of a Simuntions modified gun and "take" a shot.
That stuff hurts !
As for training with them, I can sorta see your point, but I've never been involved in any training that got out of hand or got to the point where people didn't respect it. I think that it goes hand in hand with the training environment. In this case, I think the benefits FAR outweigh the disadvantages.
The other big one which plays into my first reason is lack of proper fear and respect. .
In this case of negligent discharge,
I know that if I was the instructor and one of my students killed himself in the same way that I would have to do some serious soul searching and re-evaluation of my program.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
August 20th, 2007 07:15 PM
Please continue to drum more training into the higher ups heads. This should NEVER have happened if the young man had been given better training....not only on the weapon, but on how to act with one, on or off duty.
I am not a Law Enforcement officer, but the first thing I had drummed into my head when learning about autos is "It isn't unloaded until the chamber is empty". I have to say that running many accidents like this as a Paramedic also reenforced this, just never a officer. I did have one GunSmith who killed his adult daughter by not following this rule.
Please continue the fight for more training.
A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
Susan B. Anthony
A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
August 20th, 2007 09:00 PM
That was a short law enforcement career.
Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.
August 20th, 2007 09:06 PM
One thing I have noticed about the LEO’s up here, is that only a small minority takes skills with their firearms seriously and practice above and beyond the minimum requirements. Most complain that they don’t get enough departmental training or support, which is true, but they also refuse to practice on their own time and fail to inform themselves about other firearms and techniques. Leading to all sorts of embarrassing to deadly incidents like this.
As a rescue specialist and diver we were expected to maintain our large variety of skills sets both on the job and off. All of us dove in our spare time and worked with a variety of vessels and equipment. We did it because we knew it was our lives and our buddies lives on the line and there wasn’t much chanced of being rescued if we screwed up. I just find the apathy of most LEO’s to their firearms and training quite stunning. I suspect it because any LEO up here showing an interest in firearms is looked at with suspicion as it is considered an un-PC activity.
August 20th, 2007 09:43 PM
Completely Avoidable 100%
We have a saying at work...
If you're gonna be dumb, You better be tough...
The 6 P's
Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country" T. Roosevelt
August 20th, 2007 10:17 PM
Violation of the simple rules of firearms, Treat ALL guns as if they are loaded & NEVER point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy, plus Alcohol & guns don't mix. 3 strikes and now he is out, permanently. Sad, but just plain stupid on his part. Fortunately he did harm or kill anyone else.
August 20th, 2007 11:56 PM
Yep, the rules of safe gun handling are the rules of safe gun handling for a reason. Violate them at your own, and possibly someone else's, peril.
Learn 'em, love 'em, live by 'em.
August 22nd, 2007 12:06 AM
Agreed, there is a reason why the four rules are important.
"Remember the first rule of gunfighting..."have a gun""
August 23rd, 2007 12:37 AM
A pet peeve of mine (besides not following the 4 rules) is people not racking the slide at least a half dozen times to clear the chamber, then inspecting it visually and feeling for a round in the chamber.
August 30th, 2007 08:57 PM
A sad ending. May it serve as a lesson to someone in need of it.
August 31st, 2007 08:51 AM
This gives me alot of confidence in the training of LEOs.(/sarcasm) Had he been properly trained, not only would he have known better with no ifs,ands or buts about it. That being said, he was family/friends/etc wouldn't be dealing with such hardships of losing a loved one. Indeed,a life lost does suck,and it will probable make more gungrabbers out of it,wich just makes it even worse.
"To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.
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