Reach out and touch someone, in a big way - Page 2

Reach out and touch someone, in a big way

This is a discussion on Reach out and touch someone, in a big way within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by P95Carry Tangle - my thinking is based on the ''explosive'' effects of a bullet - like placing a charge inside a body ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Tangle - my thinking is based on the ''explosive'' effects of a bullet - like placing a charge inside a body and detonating it. The ground is solid so the ''remains'' can only go up and to side!

    If you watch what I am calling a ''scaled down'' effect with the P Dogs - they do almost explode and rise in pieces! Imagine a suitable expanding (almost frangible in effect) bullet which thru it's tremendous hydrodynamic pressure effects just ''blows up'' the target.

    I don't think BS on this as much as you - tho still am thirsty for more info. Is there not in fact a .50 cal option which is a small explosive head - small core of PETN or similar?

    I hope for more info tho. Ghoulishly fascinating!
    Hmmm, an "exploding" bullet. I was thinking more about this phenomenon occuring from a "conventional" round. An exploding bullet would make placement much less critical, not to mention the effect on the person!

    IIRC, the military determined that hydrodynamic shock only occurred with projectiles traveling at 2200 fps or greater. As I understand hydrodynamics, which isn't all that well by the way, the velocity of the bullet, not the energy, causes the flesh to accelerate away from the bullet so rapidly that the flesh is destroyed. Hence based on velocity, a .223 traveling at 3000 fps should produce a greater hydrodynamic effect than a .50 cal. traveling at 2500 fps.

    What I'm wondering, is barring an explosive round, how would one get all that energy from the .50 cal. to dump into the body? It seems to me that it would essentially tear through the body and exit, thereby dumping only a small portion of the bullet's energy into the body.
    Last edited by Tangle; June 15th, 2005 at 02:26 PM.


  2. #17
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    Very Impressive.

    When it was first posted...I could not view it 'cause I needed to upgrade my player.
    All I can say is...That is one heckova vid clip.

  3. #18
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    Hence based on velocity, a .223 traveling at 3000 fps should produce a greater hydrodynamic effect than a .50 cal. traveling at 2500 fps.

    Wrong.
    First of all standard military ball is traveling at 2750 from a 36 inch barrel. That puts the energy figure a bit over 12,000 FPE's.

    I'd be willing to bet that its a standard FMJ bullet. For those that dont know, the FMJ bullet is jacketed with copper, the bullet is actually made from steel,not lead.

    Anyone that has ever shot a .50BMG at ANTHING knows that a .223 isnt even close to the .50 in terms of "hydrostatic" shock. As an example, try shooting a concrete block with a .223 and see what happens. It might make a hole in the block, it might choose to disentegrate without even penetrating. Shoot the block with the .50 and the block will dissappear and it will turn to dust.

    On a soft target such as a watermelon, the .223 will do a good job of busting it. Shoot the watermelon with the .50 and you will have a hard time finding any of it within 25 yards of where it started.

    I have several .223's and everything in between up to and including the .50. Everything pales in comparison. After shooting several dozen rounds through my .50 BMG rifle, even the .300 magnum seems like a pipsqueak.

  4. #19
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    I had to reply to this one saying that I also have a hard time believing that a Barret would make bodies fly through the air like that. In fact I'm quite sure of it. I say this because I have seen them in action in Iraq, now don't get me wrong, they can do some really nasty damage. One of the snipers in my division hit a guy in a car through the shoulder and it blew his arm off, but it did not launch it like that, end over end. I have seen explosions that were less dramatic to a human body than some of those clips. Wish it could be true but have to say it's not. Cool clip anyways.

  5. #20
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    Following the thinking that there is a BS factor ------ what do folks consider then was the target and results explanation??

    I am still seeing P-Dogs going into orbit from small cal rounds (fact). But how can we explain these four hits on the vid?
    Chris - P95
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  6. #21
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    I dont think you are seeing bodies flying around.
    I think you may have a few heads being busted along with what looks like an arm attached on the third shoot.

    I've shot pumpkins and squash at 600 yards and they literally blow apart. When up against a hard background, the fragments from the dirt and rock finish tearing up whatever the bullet dosent.

    We gave up shooting helium filled ballons with a .50 because you didnt have to hit the balloons to pop them, anywhere close would usually do it.

    Having attended several suicides over the years it nevers ceases to amaze me what a head can look like after eating even a mild powered pistol round. Brain matter goes everywhere.

  7. #22
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    After taking a second look I can maybe see the last one, it looks more like splatter and small pieces of flesh exploding from a head shot, however, the other ones just look like too much mass and weight went flying too far. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I know for sure. I'm just saying that I have never seen anything that dramatic from a .50 cal.

  8. #23
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    Just remembered too - that last shot - immediately as the scene opens, it appears that a person is scrambling into position and then staying still - it looks humanoid.
    Chris - P95
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    Hence based on velocity, a .223 traveling at 3000 fps should produce a greater hydrodynamic effect than a .50 cal. traveling at 2500 fps.

    Wrong.
    First of all standard military ball is traveling at 2750 from a 36 inch barrel. That puts the energy figure a bit over 12,000 FPE's.

    I'd be willing to bet that its a standard FMJ bullet. For those that dont know, the FMJ bullet is jacketed with copper, the bullet is actually made from steel,not lead.

    Anyone that has ever shot a .50BMG at ANTHING knows that a .223 isnt even close to the .50 in terms of "hydrostatic" shock. As an example, try shooting a concrete block with a .223 and see what happens. It might make a hole in the block, it might choose to disentegrate without even penetrating. Shoot the block with the .50 and the block will dissappear and it will turn to dust.

    On a soft target such as a watermelon, the .223 will do a good job of busting it. Shoot the watermelon with the .50 and you will have a hard time finding any of it within 25 yards of where it started.

    I have several .223's and everything in between up to and including the .50. Everything pales in comparison. After shooting several dozen rounds through my .50 BMG rifle, even the .300 magnum seems like a pipsqueak.
    HotGuns,
    I think you are confusing energy with hydrodynamic shock. No doubt the energy of a .223 pales in comparison to a .50 cal. - that's a fact. But, there is much doubt as to how much of the .50 cal's energy can be transfered to a human body.

    OTOH, hydrodynamic shock is caused primairly by the velocity of a bullet, not the energy. It is the velocity of the bullet that causes the flesh to accelerate away from the bullet so fast the flesh is destroyed.

  10. #25
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    If you watch the second shot, you can see (what appears to be) a hand and arm. The fingers are visible....
    Bumper
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  11. #26
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    I think you are confusing energy with hydrodynamic shock. No doubt the energy of a .223 pales in comparison to a .50 cal. - that's a fact. But, there is much doubt as to how much of the .50 cal's energy can be transfered to a human body.


    about hydrodynamic shock...
    Look at it like this...

    you shoot a man with:
    a 55 grain bullet moving at 2700 FPS
    and you shoot another one with:
    a 750 grain bullet moving at 2700 FPS.

    which is gonna have the most "flesh accelerate" from the bullet ?

    Theres more to the equation than that.
    Its like dropping a marble into a pool of water...
    or dropping a softball into it.

    The softball is gonna move more water than the marble if they are close to the same speed.

  12. #27
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    First shot.>>>>I believe that the folks out in Co.,Wy.,Id., call them Marmots. It was faceing to the right,laying flat,(belly down) on the rock. The animals are approx. 10 lbs. with a dark colored tail. They also have dark markings on their head. The last shot,the Marmot runs up the rock and quickly stops facing 7-8 o'clock. These shots were made with a very high velocity weapon that is at least .30 cal. (Like my .30-378) Picture what i said and play the clip(especially the first shot) several times. Also the third shot,I believe that you can see the dark tail go twirling off to the left/high. This is one opinion,but after seeing small furry things (includeing yotes) hit with my .30-378 Weatherby Mag. shooting the 125's at almost 4100fps this is surely a possibility. Especially if you hit the rock several inches in front of the target animal.---------

  13. #28
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    I obtained that clip from a co-worker who got it from a source at Ft Hood. According to the source, those were "standard" .50 BMG rounds and yes they'll rip a person to pieces. The .50 cal was designed not as anti-personnel but rather to penetrate "hard" targets...using a 660 gr FMJ
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns


    about hydrodynamic shock...
    Look at it like this...

    you shoot a man with:
    a 55 grain bullet moving at 2700 FPS
    and you shoot another one with:
    a 750 grain bullet moving at 2700 FPS.

    which is gonna have the most "flesh accelerate" from the bullet ?

    Theres more to the equation than that.
    Its like dropping a marble into a pool of water...
    or dropping a softball into it.

    The softball is gonna move more water than the marble if they are close to the same speed.
    Given a .223 55 gn bullet and a .50 cal. 750 gn bullet, both travelling at the same velocity of 2700 fps, the .50 cal. bullet would have 13.6 times more energy than the .223. And certainly the .50 cal. would displace more flesh, if for nothing else, the .50 cal's larger diameter. All I'm saying is the hydrodynamic force comes from velocity, not energy. If we could somehow design a 125 gn .50 cal. bullet and load it to travel at the same velocity as a 750 gn bullet, they both should have the same hydrodynamic effect even though the heavier bullet would have 6 times the energy of the lighter bullet.

    The hydrodynamic effect, as I understand it, is not proportional to the energy or mass of the bullet but it is proportional to the bullet's velocity. For example, a .50 cal. 750 gn. bullet striking a body with a velocity of less than 2200 fps would, according to the Army's findings, not produce a hydrodynamic effect even though it would have an energy of some 8000 ft-lbs. OTOH, a .223 55gn. bullet striking a body with a velocity of 2700 fps would, according to the Army's findings, produce a hydrodynamic effect even though it's energy would only be an "anemic" 890 ft-lbs.

    Since one poster has witnessed hits from a .50 cal. round and saw no such terminal effects, it tends to suggest that there could be something happening way beyond reasonable expectations and experience in this video clip. We have no idea of the source of this video clip or its validity.

    The .50 caliber has been a prominent cartridge in war ever since it was developed. There have likely been thousands of men killed and wounded by a .50 cal. bullet without a mention of an arm being "blown" away, a body being tossed, etc. In fact I have read accounts of men surviving a .50 cal. hit. If the .50 cal bullet can do what is inferred in the video clip, how could a man possibly survive such a hit?

    A personal friend of mine shot a number of assailants in Iraq with a .50 cal. He said the wounds were grotesque, lots of blood and guts, but he didn't see arms blown off, exploded bodies, etc.

    I'm still doubting what we're seeing.

  15. #30
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    Sir, My opinion stands. I have a friend that belongs to The Varmint Hunters Association. They regularly shoot coyotes(and other critters) out in South Dakota with a Barrett single shot 50BMG. The hand loads that they use(i believe the 750gr.) will spin a yote around but will NOT tear the animal to pieces. In fact he says that a hit to the chest,if the bullet does not hit a rib going in,will allow the yote to run several fast steps before he piles up. The ranges that they shoot are regularly 700+ yards. Some shots are in access of 1500 yds. In the film clip from the sound of the shot to the impact is how long? Given this,with the bullet starting out at say,2700 fps, how far and more importantely, how fast is it traveling at the impact shown in the video ??--------- This is just one opinion.-----

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