Old: Why LAPD went to Glock

This is a discussion on Old: Why LAPD went to Glock within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This is from a 2003 AP report about the LAPD's move from Beretta 92s to various Glock models. My notes are in bold . I ...

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    Old: Why LAPD went to Glock

    This is from a 2003 AP report about the LAPD's move from Beretta 92s to various Glock models. My notes are in bold. I know most of you know everything that I've added, but it's frustrating to see this level of ignorance and dishonesty from a chief of police in a major US city (I expect it from "journalists.") What do you guys think? If you sat on a board and relied upon your appointed subject matter experts to provide you with solid, unbaised information so that you could make informed decisions, and THIS was what you got, how would you feel?

    LAPD Commission Gives Officers More Stopping Power, Chooses Glock

    AP - The Board of Police Commissioners today gave Los Angeles police officers the option to arm themselves with lighter weight, easier-to-shoot Glock pistols.

    "Quite frankly, it's just a much better weapon" than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm, Chief William Bratton told the five-member civilian panel that establishes policy for the Los Angeles Police Department.

    While Glocks are used by some specialized LAPD units, Bratton asked that the futuristic plastic-and-metal weapon be made available to all officers.

    Using an annual $850 equipment stipend, officers can buy the $500 Glock that is chambered for 9 mm, .40- and .45-caliber ammunition.

    About 70 percent of law enforcement agencies nationwide use Glocks, including the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

    Bratton, no fan of the Beretta sidearm that gave him blisters during his Academy training in Los Angeles (no bias then, on his decision to abandon them, right? Because he, personally, couldn't fire one properly...), was head of the New York Police Department when it switched to Glocks in the 1990s.

    Glocks provide greater stopping power than Berettas and are lighter than .45-caliber handguns, the LAPD's alternate sidearm. (This, of course, is ludicrous. A 9mm from a Beretta will actually have a tiny bit MORE energy then from most Glocks, because the Beretta has a 4.9" barrel compared to the Glock 17s 4.5" and the 4.0" bbl of the Glock 19. I'll grant that Glocks are, in general, lighter than steel or alloy frame handguns of similar size, but saying that they're lighter than ".45 caliber handguns" is just stupid - one of the approved weapons is the .45 caliber Glock! How can it be lighter than itself?!)

    Its other advantages include less recoil (again, just wrong. A lighter weapon in the same caliber will, in almost all cases, have MORE felt recoil. Of course, if it is a lighter weapon in a more potent caliber - like the G23 to the Beretta 92, the INCREASE in recoil will be even larger. This is an out and out falsehood, one of many in this article), larger magazine capacity (possibly, but unlikely. The Beretta 92 carries 15+1. The only "standard" Glock that carries more is the G17, with 17+1. All other models are the same or LESS then the Beretta 92. More outright lies.), more uniform trigger press, simpler construction and a more ergonomic design (ergonomics are, of course, highly subjective. What feels good to me may not feel good to you. Additionally, the most often heard complaint about the Glock is that is has an odd grip angle, which translates to POOR ergonomics for many shooters), allowing officers with smaller hands to easily handle the gun (obviously these officers aren't using the Glock 21...though the Beretta is admittedly thick with a long reach for that double-action trigger), according to an LAPD report to the commission (obviously, the LAPD report LIED, straight to the face of the commission, and they - and this reporter, didn't know any better or didn't care).

    "It's an outstanding weapons system," said Commissioner Alan J. Skobin, a reserve Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy. (Can't argue with that...)

    But while the pistols are easier to use, bullets fired from Glocks are harder to identify in officer-involved shooting investigations. Only 10 percent of the bullets from a Glock can be traced back to the gun from which they were fired. (Damn CSI for creating a country of morons who think that every single detail is traceable, and immediately available with a computer stroke or two, for all things forensic.)

    Some law enforcement agencies use a modified barrel to try to mark the bullets. LAPD brass has not required officers to buy those barrels, however, saying the system is untested.(Untested? It's utter BS)

    Officers who want to use the Glocks must take a two-day training course.

    First introduced in 1983 by Austrian Gaston Glock, the pistols were used by the Austrian military and quickly became popular.

    Glock Inc. USA's headquarters are in Smyrna, Ga.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Excellent points, sir.

    Regarding Bratton getting blisters firing the 92FS (awww..he got an ouchie!)...how the heck was he grasping the Beretta?
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

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    Have to make a statement on this .... as a trainer teaching tons of LEOs there is no worse design to teach on than the Beretta. For several reasons, most notibally the fact that the do not fit as many hands as the Glocks do and the "felt" recoil is lighter in a Glock from all test conducted by a number of agencies. I personally have fired a Glock 19 in direct comparison to a Beretta 92F and the felt recoil was less in the Glock. Finally, with a Glock you do not have the weapon dissembly issue that you can have (and officers have had...as I've personally interviewed the first such reported case) of someone taking the slide off of a Beretta while the weapon was in the hands of the officer. (BTW the first reported case happened to a US Army MP who was clearing a building and the perp grabbed the weapon as the MP cleared a corner and as a suprise to both of them the slide came off in the hands of the suspect, who then used it to beat the MP about the head with it).

    I support the Chief and recognize that even though you trashed him by saying "Because he, personally, couldn't fire one properly", you failed to notice that he wears a expert marksmanship medal that he earned while shooting the Beretta, to me that means he recognized what tons of trainers have realized that the Beretta just dosent fit as many hands and isnt as easy to shoot as a Glock is, not to mention that qualification scores are typically better with the Glock than with the Beretta (ever wonder why the FBI went with a Glock over a Beretta?) Ohh and I personally believe he got the blisters from loading magazines and trigger time, as those are the two main causes I was when we were firing 1000+ rounds a day for four weeks in my last acadamy (btw thats not counting the first six where we only fired about 400 to 500 a day).

    Finally, bless him (the chief), because I havent met a firearms instructor or note that wont admit that the trigger system used on the Glock is more condusive to accurate shooting than the DA/SA system of the LAPD issued Beretta.

    Ok back to my cage where I can honestly say that one of the few pistols I was happy to shoot was a Beretta 92F.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

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    In my humble opinion, I think the greatest contributing factor of a Glock's "low" recoil is it's lower (than a Beretta 92/96-series gun) bore axis and secondarily the polymer frame and it's "flexing" in recoil.

    DA/SA shooting is not easy; Glocks and their trigger system are....and that's why so many folks flock towards Glocks.

    I find Beretta very easy to shoot, but then again I have thousands of rounds behind the M9 and my personal 92/96/Cougars....I will add a caveat, I installed either 1911 or Beretta D mainsprings on all of my 92/96 guns which is an instant "trigger job" to one of those guns.

    While I don't question the officers losing their slides during the disarm attempts, as I'm sure anyone with Beretta experience knows, it takes three things to remove the slide; punch the button the right side of the frame, push the lever down on the left side, and move the slide forward until it clears the rails. Were the disassembly lever/button checked after the incidents to see if they were functioning....where the disassembly levers in the "down" position a'la' Jet Lee in "Lethal Weapon III?"

    A few Florida Department of Law Enforcement (the state's version of the FBI) agents who are gun-guys prefer their older Beretta 92's...you can tell who they are because they still carry their Berettas....I'm not sure for how much longer though.

    One FDLE firearms instructor, who preferred the Beretta, told me the only reason they went to Glock is because Beretta (not sure if Beretta USA or corporate in Italy) would not make any more 92F (Compacts I believe) to accomodate FDLE's needs. Essentially, FDLE was perfectly happy with the Beretta but they couldn't get more of a particular model since Beretta had only recently (at the time) discontinued them. Granted, I'm sure a lot of agents welcomed the issuing of Glocks since, again, they are really easy to shoot...especially in 9mm.

    Still...the Glock is a good gun (I own a G20 10mm); that said, in a polymer framed gun, I prefer the Steyr M/S/M-A1 over the Glock.
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

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    You havent been training if you dont have blisters.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    I shot a Beretta when I was at FLTEC and hated the dang thing.

    I find the Glock to have a better trigger, even with the 8# NY1 Trigger in it. The "big ol' Italian gun didn't fit my small mitts either. I was able to shoot it, and pretty well too. However, I've got 20+ years of shooting to draw on.

    I saw some of the "cracked slides and frames" that people talk about. In my humble opinion, the Beretta is not designed to take the abuse of the Firearms Training at FLETC. I also found the Berettas to be unreliable. This may have been a "magazine issue" and not a "gun issue" but it happened more with the Berettas than with the Glocks.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't worship at the "Alter of Polymer". In fact, Off-Duty I carry a couple of Revolvers and wish I could carry them On-Duty. My personal preference is for the Glock if I have to carry a "bottomfeeder". I think the "Chief" said what he had to say to get what he wanted and also to "Dumb It Down" for the City Council, so they could understand.

    Really, I don't care what they issue me. I will make it work.

    Biker

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    Quote Originally Posted by fed_wif_a_sig View Post
    Finally, with a Glock you do not have the weapon dissembly issue that you can have (and officers have had...as I've personally interviewed the first such reported case) of someone taking the slide off of a Beretta while the weapon was in the hands of the officer. (BTW the first reported case happened to a US Army MP who was clearing a building and the perp grabbed the weapon as the MP cleared a corner and as a suprise to both of them the slide came off in the hands of the suspect, who then used it to beat the MP about the head with it).
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I shot a Beretta when I was at FLTEC and hated the dang thing.
    I saw some of the "cracked slides and frames" that people talk about. In my humble opinion, the Beretta is not designed to take the abuse of the Firearms Training at FLETC. I also found the Berettas to be unreliable. This may have been a "magazine issue" and not a "gun issue" but it happened more with the Berettas than with the Glocks.
    Well it looks like we have a good ole fashion Beretta bashing going on here. I purposely did not reply to fed_wif_a_sig's post because I wanted to see how long it would take for the slide issue to come up.

    Why don't you guys go ahead and mention the other gun issues we've all heard about:
    .40 cal Glocks go Ka-Boom
    1911's are jam-o-matics
    Sigs will eventually have a hole worn in the barrel where the barrel makes contact with the slide while tipping ala: Sig smilie
    you can stop a person from shooting you with a semi-automatic pistol by grabbing it and pulling the gun in the direction away from the shooter.

    Many, many more but I won't insult this boards intelligence with the rest.

    Why does the U.S. Military keep buying more and more of these unreliable and inferior Beretta pistols.The only reason I can think of is they purchase only pistols that have met their highest standards, without failure. Yea...that's got to be it!

    BTW, the Memphis police dept. just completed rearming all officers with the Sig pistol. The Glocks are gone!
    Welcome to Tennessee, the patron state of shootin' stuff.--SHOOTER

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    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Which SIG's for the Memphis Police Dept ?

    Beretta, very large grip is an issue for many. Very heavy DA stroke is an issue for many. Life of the handgun in rounds down range is lower than SIG or GLOCK.

    Back in the 1980's, Beretta and SIG, were the only two handguns that passed the military testing. Some say, it was a cost issue. Old saying " the best the lowest bidder could provide". Some say, because the Beretta has a "manual" safety (yes it is a decocker and safety) which prevents the handgun from firing without manually disengaging the "safety/decocker". The SIG decocker is just that a decocker not a safety - pull and shoot like a revolver.

    Given the level of training with handguns most of the military has, the "manual" safety was preferred. Higher quality training and equipment, more range time including rounds, the SIG would have be just fine. The issue was the "people" not the handgun.

    Fast forward from the 1980 to the last few years, SIG DAK and new SIG P250.

    Note: to disassemble the Glock, one must pull the trigger to disassemble. One does not have to pull the trigger to disassemble the SIG or Beretta.

    A book could be written on these issues.

    Ripping a slide off Beretta, while in the hands of another, seems like I have read this on the internet and maybe in a movie or two. Not impossible to do but not the norm skill for +99% even in the firearms world.

    I have shot 1000 rds a day in handgun many times but have not heard of training doing this for 4 weeks in one class/course/academy, but I have not been every in the world.

    SIG's, GLOCK's, and Beretta's all work; size of the hands and level of training are the key factors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Really, I don't care what they issue me. I will make it work.

    Biker
    I love this guy!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    Which SIG's for the Memphis Police Dept ?
    I believe it is the 229, .40 cal, with the DAK trigger. They all seem very happy with the change!
    Welcome to Tennessee, the patron state of shootin' stuff.--SHOOTER

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    Well up here the Chief Firearms Officer is banning people in the bush carrying Glocks in 10mm because a "semi-automatic" is more unreliable than a revolver, plus they say that the 10 rds of 10mm is not powerful enough, but 6 rds of .41 is....


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    Quote Originally Posted by fed_wif_a_sig View Post
    Have to make a statement on this .... as a trainer teaching tons of LEOs there is no worse design to teach on than the Beretta. For several reasons, most notibally the fact that the do not fit as many hands as the Glocks do and the "felt" recoil is lighter in a Glock from all test conducted by a number of agencies. I personally have fired a Glock 19 in direct comparison to a Beretta 92F and the felt recoil was less in the Glock. Finally, with a Glock you do not have the weapon dissembly issue that you can have (and officers have had...as I've personally interviewed the first such reported case) of someone taking the slide off of a Beretta while the weapon was in the hands of the officer. (BTW the first reported case happened to a US Army MP who was clearing a building and the perp grabbed the weapon as the MP cleared a corner and as a suprise to both of them the slide came off in the hands of the suspect, who then used it to beat the MP about the head with it).

    I support the Chief and recognize that even though you trashed him by saying "Because he, personally, couldn't fire one properly", you failed to notice that he wears a expert marksmanship medal that he earned while shooting the Beretta, to me that means he recognized what tons of trainers have realized that the Beretta just dosent fit as many hands and isnt as easy to shoot as a Glock is, not to mention that qualification scores are typically better with the Glock than with the Beretta (ever wonder why the FBI went with a Glock over a Beretta?) Ohh and I personally believe he got the blisters from loading magazines and trigger time, as those are the two main causes I was when we were firing 1000+ rounds a day for four weeks in my last acadamy (btw thats not counting the first six where we only fired about 400 to 500 a day).

    Finally, bless him (the chief), because I havent met a firearms instructor or note that wont admit that the trigger system used on the Glock is more condusive to accurate shooting than the DA/SA system of the LAPD issued Beretta.

    Ok back to my cage where I can honestly say that one of the few pistols I was happy to shoot was a Beretta 92F.
    Fed, I'm not bashing the Glock (I personally prefer it to the Beretta, in almost all circumstances). I think the LAPD is probably better served with Glocks. What I was bashing is the lies rampant in the article...nothing more.

    As for the blisters - I can say with a very high degree of confidence that the LAPD qual course does not entail the 32,000+ rounds of ammo that you shot during your program. I have shot the Beretta hard (again, not 32,000 rounds in one program, but 2,000 rounds in a week here and there) and developed no blisters - but then again, I hadn't been behind a desk as a chief of police for who knows how long prior to these courses of fire.... It really wasn't meant as a personal dig against him, but "I got boo-boos" isn't, IMO, a major reason for switching firearms. Now, if lots of people were getting boo-boos, that might mean something...

    Again, I'm not supporting Beretta or bashing Glocks - I was simply pointing out what a load of hooey that article (and the report to the "commission" that is was based on, presumably) is.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Blisters while loading mags - yup. The big no-no that comes to my mind with Berettas is trying to "wipe" a stovepipe from the chamber as one would do with a 1911. You WILL get pinched by the slide. I did that once (and only once). After 30 years of shooting 1911s before touching my first Beretta, old habits die hard.

    My hands are just big enough for the Beretta. They fit a Glock much better. That being said, Biker is correct. I will make whatever i'm issued work (currently a H&K P2000)! As I've said to some of my colleagues "That's what we've got - Deal with it"!

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    A Different World

    Most LEO Rookies now-a-days have their very FIRST ever exposure to handguns during an orientation class at the Academy. Gone are the days when raw recruits had grown-up experiencing hunting & shooting well before they decided on a LE career. If you combine that with issues of possible litigation (re: F.B.I. Female Recruits who sued over trigger reach) you get a better understanding of why Decision Makers in major (large) agencies are VERY slanted toward gun designs that are simple (no manual safety or decocker), relatively easy to teach, have consistant/deliberate trigger pulls, and fit the widest variety of hand sizes.

    Better-trained "Operators" can easily handle the more complex nature of, say...a 1911, a Sig/HK or even a Beretta 92. But notice that even those designs are often selected in a DAO, LAN or DAK model for those same issues mentioned above.

    No insult to ANY LEO who joins us in these conversations, but I would bet that most of our Forum Members are more knowledgable about guns than the vast number of general LEOs. GLOCKs are popular with PDs because they're; easy to teach, easy to shoot, easy to afford & easy to defend in court. We, around here, rightfully pride ourselves on being more sophisticated pistoleros, so WE prefer more sophisticated pistols. Same thing with SWAT, HRT & other "specialized" handgunners. They seldom are required to use the standard-issue service gun of the Department's Rank and File.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I love this guy!!
    It is because he's a die hard wheelgunner...pure of heart
    Dave

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