Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) - Page 3

Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

This is a discussion on Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by OPFOR And as far as telling the difference between a SWAT team and a gang of home invaders... If the reflective POLICE ...

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Thread: Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    And as far as telling the difference between a SWAT team and a gang of home invaders... If the reflective POLICE markings all over, the M4s with lights mounted, the uniforms, helmets, and body armor, and the hundreds of shouts of "POLICE" don't give you a clue......I don't know what to tell you.
    Home invaders have often impersonated LE. I hear it's a major trend in Detroit. When the door blasts open, you don't have a lot of time to evaluate insignia. It's dark, you woke up 3 seconds ago, and you see guys with guns barging in. Their shouts of "police" are also used by home invaders. You have to make a snap decision AND it's a given that since this is the wrong house, you are a law abiding citizen not expecting to be raided.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGibson View Post
    I don't like no-knock warrants. I can't discern the difference between that and a common home-invasion. Government-sanctioned home invasions don't sit well with me. But, if it costs one innocent homeowner, it's less than useful. And less than justified.

    Knock & announce may let some bad guys get by, or some evidence to hit the toilet, but it's not as likely to result in killing innocent citizens.
    Agreed. It's both a morality issue and a safety issue for me. And this is one of those things I've always been concerned with myself. It HAS happened where folks wore vests emblazoned with POLICE or some such related lettering in the middle of a home invasion. Either way, I don't have time to id targets when my door is being kicked in. My door gets kicked or blown, I'm shooting the first thing coming through it whether it's labeled as Police on the front or not. That scares me... the "what if". The only reason I wouldn't is if it was CLEAR that they are legitimate LE (ie sirens, marked units outside etc...)

    For instance:
    In Texas
    http://www.levin.senate.gov/newsroom....cfm?id=209940
    part of a gang that committed home invasion robberies. They wore jackets emblazoned with the word "POLICE" to fool residents into opening their doors.
    How about a recent one (Nov2007) In Hawaii
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...711280401.html
    and black T-shirts emblazoned with a white "DEA" logo when they entered the home.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    We could argue that if banning guns saves one life then isn't it worth it? Oh wait, HCI already does that.

    I do not like NKW's because the principle of our legal system is that, "It's better for 100 guilty men to go free than to put one innocent man in jail."

    Yes, the cards are "stacked" in favor of the BG's. It's always been that way when you stop and think about it. BG's will be BG's, that's a given. It's our job to find ways to stop them within the framework of the law.

    Are there times when NKW's serve a valued purpose? Without a doubt. However I do think that having SWAT serve all the warrants, like some jurisdictions do, and NKW's are bad precident. There are ways to get your BG without serving a warrant on the occupied dwelling.

    Oftentimes we get in a hurry to get things done when time is actually in our favor. "Sit amd wait" is less dangerous, less stressful and allows me to eat a couple more donuts and finish my coffee.

    Stay safe and Merry Christmas.

    Biker
    See emphasis added above... ding ding ding ding ding...that would be FFX Co. Virginia!
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGibson View Post
    No, they don't.
    Care to expound on/defend/support/prove that statement? I'll just wait over here while I put on my brown shirt and jack boots...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    OPFOR,

    We're going to disagree on this one. You see it from a LEOs perspective. I see it from a potential victim's perspective, should I be the unlucky target. (...I know the chances are remote, but they exist.)

    NKWs may not be the norm for you, but MANY localities use them for serving ALL warrants. In one of my earlier posts in this thread:
    Fair enough. I see it from a potential target's standpoint, too - it's not like there's a sign out front that says "LEO's house, no NKWs allowed." And I also think you're right, some jurisdictions overuse the technique. It did not come about to serve warrants on folks with outstanding traffic tickets, or for non-violent subjects. It may be starting to morph into that in some places, and I am very much against that. But I will not paint with the broad brush of banning simply because the potential for misuse exists.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Care to expound on/defend/support/prove that statement? I'll just wait over here while I put on my brown shirt and jack boots...
    Nope. You're in Brazil. Breaking into residences in the United States in the middle of the night is, by nature, not conductive to the saving of lives. This would apply whether you're a common dirtbag or a home-invader with a badge.

    Care to defend, or provide stats to support yours?

  7. #37
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    Gents.... Gents..... let's keep it civil please.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  8. #38
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    packininnova - these two examples (out of how many armed robberies every year?) are indeed scary. But the first WAS basically a knock and announce (and came from an anti-CCW propoganda piece, no less) - so that kind of flies in the face of the K&A is the only safe way to go argument, doesn't it?

    In the other one, the BGs were all the way in the house and holding the GGs at gunpoint before anyone in the house knew they were there - hardly the "flash bang, kick in the door, 'Police, get down!' sort of entry we normally associate with NKWs, is it? And they had one pistol and one revolver - hardly the weapons of an entry team...

    So, two examples, neither of which is really applicable, and we're going to claim that folks can't tell the difference between cops and BGs, and that home invaders credibly impersonating LEOs is so endemic that we're going to shoot at uniforms... Whew, I guess I need to switch to full-on tin foil, this aluminum stuff ain't workin'.

    And I just thought of something...are all these warrants that are being served by SWAT in Fairfax (where I used to live, by the way) and other places NKWs? I find that very hard to believe... It's one thing to used your best trained and equipped folks to serve a warrant, it's another to get a NKW for every single warrant that you serve...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGibson View Post
    Nope. You're in Brazil. Breaking into residences in the United States in the middle of the night is, by nature, not conductive to the saving of lives. This would apply whether you're a common dirtbag or a home-invader with a badge.

    Care to defend, or provide stats to support yours?
    I'm in Brazil, but I'm a US LEO, and I've (fairly obviously) never served a warrant in Brazil - my jurisdiction ends at the US border. I have, however, conducted a number of raids in various sandy places around the world, and I can tell you that strolling up and knocking would have resulted in a lot of dead GIs. So, the technique has probably saved MY life. That's pretty good defense, in my book.

    When there are armed, violent bad guys inside who will not hesitate to shoot their way out of an arrest, coming at them when they are asleep, with overwhelming odds and quick, aggressive action prevents them from bringing their weapons and bad intent into play. Thus, it is safer for the LEOs who must deal with them (and keeps them from coming after YOU, later - more potential lives saved.) To make a blanked statement like "they don't" save lives, ever, in any case, is ridiculous and shows an extreme lack of understanding on the subject.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, two examples, neither of which is really applicable, and we're going to claim that folks can't tell the difference between cops and BGs, and that home invaders credibly impersonating LEOs is so endemic that we're going to shoot at uniforms... Whew, I guess I need to switch to full-on tin foil, this aluminum stuff ain't workin'.
    The example of the OP would seem more credible, in this context.

    You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Yes, there are many more NKWs served against legitimate criminals each year and probably those legitimate criminals know full well who is and isn't a cop.

    But that's not OUR issue, as law abiding citizens. From OUR point of view, what are the odds of a LE-impersonated home invasion vs a wrong-address NKW by real cops? Keeping in mind that we expect anyone breaking down our door at 2 AM to be a criminal, since we have no reason to expect police. Also keep in mind that we have only a few seconds to decide before being over run and tied up, with a hideous fate maybe ahead.

    And I think one has to admit this problem is hugely worsened by the militarization of police that has come about from the War on Drugs. Many of these NKW-gone-wrong are drug raids.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Gun Bunny's Avatar
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    This is in USA Today:
    Police haven't decided whether they'll try to charge Khang with a crime. KMSP-TV says the Khang family is consulting with a civil attorney.
    If the police even mentioned this to me, I would sue in a heart-beat!!!
    I most likely wouldn't sue if everybody came out in one piece, but if they told me that I might be charged then it would be a "no-holds-barred"law suit!

    I must admit that I don't care for these kind of warrants either, sometimes they have to be served, and maybe necessary, but they are being used to much for lesser crimes. Most likely SWAT isn't a fault either, and if I was a member of a team and this happened, I'd be real pissed at my fellow Officer!

    Why could they not wait for someone to leave the home, stop them down the road, confirm it's the right house then issue the warrant? This may not work for every situation, but I would think it would work sometimes. I know I'm not a LEO, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn either, just a thought that I had, that's all.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    Fair enough. You're still in a Chuck Norris movie. I deal with the real-world end result of this on a pretty regular basis. It might be the resident-victim of the break-in, or the LEO that broke in. I've been on both sides. We represent common defendants, and we represent LEO defendants. LEO defendant's are, almost without exception, horrified by the situation they find themselves in. They never expect to be charged with a crime. Their agencies, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, abandon them. If you're a LEO, keep that in mind.

    By the way, if you're a US-LEO, what're you doing in Brazil?

    The bottom line? These folks committed a government-sanctioned home-invasion on US soil. They broke into a residence in America. Fortunately, they didn't murder the homeowner. It wasn't justified, it was a major screw-up.

    The boots you're wearing don't justify it. And I, don't have to.

  13. #43
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    I know that being very hard of hearing I have trouble understanding people when they are right next to me. If there is a bunch of noise around it is neigh on impossible for me even when i am wearing my $4000 hearing aids. Plus, if the police knock on the door at night I probably won't even hear it. So, with all that, if for some stupid reason the police try to get in my house by breaking down the door with them shouting and lights flashing everywhere I can pretty much guarantee that they will get shot at.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGibson View Post
    Fair enough. You're still in a Chuck Norris movie.
    Thanks for clearing that up - I thought I was John Wayne.

    I deal with the real-world end result of this on a pretty regular basis. It might be the resident-victim of the break-in, or the LEO that broke in. I've been on both sides. We represent common defendants, and we represent LEO defendants. LEO defendant's are, almost without exception, horrified by the situation they find themselves in. They never expect to be charged with a crime. Their agencies, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, abandon them. If you're a LEO, keep that in mind.
    Ah, a lawyer, that clears up so much...

    By the way, if you're a US-LEO, what're you doing in Brazil?
    My job. Next I'll be back in Iraq. After that, maybe back to the states, but maybe not. There are LEOs who don't work in one town all their lives...

    The bottom line? These folks committed a government-sanctioned home-invasion on US soil. They broke into a residence in America. Fortunately, they didn't murder the homeowner. It wasn't justified, it was a major screw-up.
    I've said this was a major screw up from jump street. I've also said that you don't ban a tool that saves lives (and it does) because a small percentage of people misuse that tool.

    The boots you're wearing don't justify it. And I, don't have to.
    Of course not. That would require a rational, moral, and/or legal argument. Much easier to cry "do it for the children" and leave it at that.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    I rest my case.

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