Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

This is a discussion on Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by BruceGibson I rest my case. What case?...

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Thread: Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGibson View Post
    I rest my case.
    What case?























    "Just blame Sixto"

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    The case I just won. Where's my jury?

    Besides, you're supposed to be healing. Get outta here.

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I've also said that you don't ban a tool that saves lives (and it does) because a small percentage of people misuse that tool.
    Then maybe we should get rid of this "reasonable doubt" and "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Sure, a small percentage of innocent people would end up in jail, but it would save lives by making sure the criminals get locked up.

    We could also get rid of this whole business about warrants. Sure, police would barge in on a few homes of innocent people in the middle of the night, but it would get more drugs/illegal guns/criminals off the streets and save lives.

  5. #49
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    I will say this, on principle I do not like NKW.

    Coming from the U.S. Homeowner side of me, if you crash in my house at 0:Darkthirty expect me to respond. If this happened to me I could only hope that the SWAT Team that serves the warrant is filled with the same examples of poor marksmanship that this one was.

    Coming from the LEO side of me I think NKW's are used too much in too many locales. Time is on the LEO's side, not the BG's. Take the time and do it "right" is my at work motto.

    Yes, there are times that NKW's can be justified but I think we are forgetting the bigger picture. This is a "slippery slope", to use an old phrase. Remember, I said this before and I'll say it again, our legal system is built on the premise that it's better that 100 guilty men go free than for one innocent man to spend a night in jail.

    There is NO JUSTIFICATION for hitting the wrong house or arresting the wrong person. Can we detain the wrong person until we verify? Sure, happens all the time and I have no problem with that.

    I think we can all agree that this was a major goatroping from the word "Go". This is what happens when you believe an informant without verifying, if I'm guessing right. In short, it was sloppy and incomplete work.

    In my book this was a criminal act perpetuated by armed people with a badge acting under color of authority. For the LEO's in here, remember, we all took an oath and swore to uphold the Constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

    Biker

  6. #50
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    I dont think anybody would disagree with you Biker, but there is a time and place for KNW. The people serving the warrant need to have extreme attention to detail, this one was botched from the start.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    Home invaders have often impersonated LE. I hear it's a major trend in Detroit. When the door blasts open, you don't have a lot of time to evaluate insignia. It's dark, you woke up 3 seconds ago, and you see guys with guns barging in. Their shouts of "police" are also used by home invaders. You have to make a snap decision AND it's a given that since this is the wrong house, you are a law abiding citizen not expecting to be raided.
    Yep. ^^

    And then there have been the _many_ real LEO officer but unlawful and even outright with purpose criminal intent no knock door bustings that have and still do including this year do occur. The most recent I'd seen in the news was this past spring/summer a pair of NYPD officers that drove to some neighborhood in NJ to B&E and rob a home only to be noticed and approached by a neighbor citizen who upon them stating they are 'cops' demanded to see ID and as a result called the local cops. The NYPD cops drove away and the local cops arrived soon there after and per the description of the neighbor were able to track the NYPD cops down to a local highway and stopped them their with the looted evidence in their car (!).
    Then there is the case also this year of a group of IIRC Army enlisted who as a gang attacked and broke into the home of a fellow enlisted man to beat him, his wife, and did so under the guise that they too were 'police'.
    Then there is the _infamous_ case of drug dealer Lester Eugene Siler; http://www.wbir.com/news/archive.aspx?storyid=27072

    This stuff is happening to people of all stripes.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasAg View Post
    Then maybe we should get rid of this "reasonable doubt" and "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Sure, a small percentage of innocent people would end up in jail, but it would save lives by making sure the criminals get locked up.

    We could also get rid of this whole business about warrants. Sure, police would barge in on a few homes of innocent people in the middle of the night, but it would get more drugs/illegal guns/criminals off the streets and save lives.
    Uh, what?

    I said we need to use the tool more carefully...not open it up to further and less safe use. Perhaps you should actually read the whole thread before jumping in with some utterly irrelevent hystrionics about doing away with due process...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    It really angers me to here this kind of stuff, it angers me as a citizen and angers me as an LEO.
    I spend countless hours making sure the house we are about to hit is the right one, has the right people/stuff in it etc. It does take a lot of work to do it right, but right is the only way to do it. To get lazy, impatient or anything else with this stuff just pisses me off.

    The no knocks etc isnt even an issue here, so I will go there only to say if you dont know what you are talking about in regard to them STHU. Its about laziness and poor investigations.
    These things will happen. I have defended a no-knock wrong apartment civil rights case. To say the least it can be an embarrassing mess.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    You're right, it can't, without a special warrant that is much more difficult to get than even the regular warrant (which is what is required by the 4th Amendment - nothing more, nothing less.) It's not like a couple of cops decide to go kick a door in at oh-dark-thirty and then have at it - these warrants are sworn to a judge, who must be convinced that there are special circumstances that, well, warrant the special warrant.
    Some states may have a "special" warrant. For other states it still just a search warrant on the same form with no special statute [at least for the cases I have tried]. We just hope that the magistrates and LEO's use good judgment.

  11. #55
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    Janq, I'm with you, but to be fair all of those examples are completely off topic (with the possible exception of the second one). The fact that real cops became burglars has absolutely nothing to do with NKWs, nor does a group of soldiers commiting a home invasion, nor does a group of cops beating and robbing a suspect. And let's face it, you have a MUCH greater chance of dying from a bee sting than you do of being the victim of a legitimate home invasion where the BGs are credibly impersonating LE and/or from being the victim of a "bad" NKW service combined.

    No one has given one single example of BGs coming in with uniforms, long guns, lights, distraction devices, strong verbal commands, etc - because it just doesn't happen.

    According to Tangle's post on civilian DGUs, most folks had the time to go get their weapon before engaging a home-invasion style threat - perhaps you could use that time to determine if the BGs are actually BGs or if they are, in fact, the police.

    And again, no one is excusing poor police work, bad intelligence, or use of NKWs for "average" warrant services. I'm just saying don't blame the tool, blame the user. I can't see why this is so hard to understand.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    Some states may have a "special" warrant. For other states it still just a search warrant on the same form with no special statute [at least for the cases I have tried]. We just hope that the magistrates and LEO's use good judgment.
    Really? On the Federal side, we must get special permission from the judge to go in at night and/or without announcing. We must be able to articulate special circumstances that justify this unusual technique - usually the known or strongly suspected presence of weapons and a violent felon inside the target house. Often, judges are very strict on what they consider 'special' circumstances, and may require further evidence/documentation that a NKW is needed. It's not a rubber stamp, in any case.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OPFOR,

    The examples I cited are relevant because the 'officers' either did not knock at all rushing in shouting "POLICE!" just as real police do,or in the NYPD case the two cops entered a home without knocking as they assumed the owner would not be home. This was the case, in that instance thought the persons neighbor (I believe it was a duplex) heard them making a commotion and sa them enter and doing so without announcing they were police.

    I should have explained this in further detail and done my norm of providing links to the news stories to better help underscore my point.
    I'm feeling lazy/tired right now as I spent 2 hrs. helping my next door neighbor get himself unstuck from a snowbank including having to jump his car 3 times and ultimately drive him to the grocery mart to get enough dinner supplies to last him for the remainder of the week as his car now unstuck won't keep a charge.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    OPFOR,

    The examples I cited are relevant because the 'officers' either did not knock at all rushing in shouting "POLICE!" just as real police do,or in the NYPD case the two cops entered a home without knocking as they assumed the owner would not be home. This was the case, in that instance thought the persons neighbor (I believe it was a duplex) heard them making a commotion and sa them enter and doing so without announcing they were police.
    I get it, but it's not similar to a NKW (again, except perhaps in the second case, but simply yelling "police" isn't exactly a credible impersonation). It's basically bad cops being bad - and rest assured that I'm against that!

    I should have explained this in further detail and done my norm of providing links to the news stories to better help underscore my point.
    I'm feeling lazy/tired right now as I spent 2 hrs. helping my next door neighbor get himself unstuck from a snowbank including having to jump his car 3 times and ultimately drive him to the grocery mart to get enough dinner supplies to last him for the remainder of the week as his car now unstuck won't keep a charge.

    - Janq
    No worries - I had a tough day in the 80 degree heat myself. Had to skim the pool before I could get in it and everything, danged palm trees dropped some schmutz in it...the horror...the horror...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    ...No one has given one single example of BGs coming in with uniforms, long guns, lights, distraction devices, strong verbal commands, etc - because it just doesn't happen...
    I can get you lots of examples as as much is featured in the news constantly...

    Home Invasion Robberies
    by Jaime Adame
    February 2005
    ...Robbers sometimes claim to be police in order to get people to open their doors, perhaps especially troubling to the actual police. But such an impersonation, while involving a separate criminal charge, does not typically lead to a stiffer sentence upon conviction, according to James Evangelou, chief of the Career Criminal Major Crime Bureau for the Queens County district attorney’s office. Neither does the law do much to distinguish between home invasions and street robberies, said Evangelou...

    Source - http://www.gothamgazette.com/article...0050201/4/1313
    ---

    Sevier officers arrest two men after attempted home invasion

    News Sentinel staff
    Thursday, October 25, 2007

    GATLINBURG — Sevier County sheriff’s officers charged two men who allegedly impersonated police officers and wore camouflage clothing during a home invasion attempt that prompted a gun battle with a homeowner, according to authorities.

    Robert Joel Hawkins, 21, and Isaiah Ray Kemp, 22, both of Sevierville, were charged with attempted aggravated burglary, aggravated assault and six counts each of reckless endangerment, according to a release from Sevier County Sheriff Ron Seals.

    The pair are accused of attempting to enter the home at 429 King Branch Road. Authorities were alerted at 11:13 p.m. Tuesday of the incident, Seals said in the release.

    The homeowner told officers that two men dressed in camouflage clothing with stockings over their faces knocked on the door and claimed to be police officers. When the men couldn’t provide police identification, the homeowner refused to open the door, Seals said in the release.

    The two intruders then displayed a handgun and an AR-15 rifle and pointed the weapons at people in the home, Seals said. The homeowner got his own weapon, and the two men ran. The homeowner fired at the fleeing men, and they returned fire before leaving in a dark-colored truck, Seals said in the release. No one was injured during the gunfight.

    Sevier County deputies stopped a truck on Upper Middle Creek Road as it was leaving the area and found camouflage clothing, an AR-15 rifle, a handgun and a bullet-resistant vest in the vehicle, Seals said. Seals said the investigation is continuing.

    Source - http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/oc...ter-attempted/
    ---



    Home Invasion Safety Tips

    Home invasions are particularly frightening because they violate our private space and the one place that we think of as our sanctuary.

    The most common point of attack is through the front door or garage. Sometimes the home invaders will simply kick open the door and confront everyone inside.

    More common is when the home invaders knock on the door first or ring the bell. The home invader hopes that the occupant will simply open the door, without question, in response to their knock. Unfortunately, many people do just that. Home invaders will sometimes use a ruse or impersonation to get you to open the door. They have been known to pretend to be delivering a package, flowers or lie about an accident like hitting your parked car...

    Source - http://www.twpusc.org/police/safetyt...einvasion.html
    ---
    Two Women Shot In West Philadelphia Home Invasion

    Two women were shot in a West Philadelphia home invasion Sunday after two susp...ects, who were impersonating police officers, robbed them.

    Source as a video - http://video.aol.com/video-detail/tw...sion/631215948
    ---

    Fairfax County Police Department
    Public Information Office
    4100 Chain Bridge Road, Fairfax, Va. 22030
    703-246-2253. TTY 703-204-2264. Fax 703-246-4253
    FCPD-PIO@fairfaxcounty.gov
    www.fairfaxcounty.gov
    News Release: 06/045/1644/MM/(3)
    April 13, 2006

    Home Invasion Robbery in McLean

    A couple was at home in the Tysons Corner area near the intersection of Lewinsville Road and Spring Hill Road on Tuesday, February 14. Around 9:45 a.m. they responded to a knock at the door. Two men identified themselves as police officers, and the victims let the two men in. Both men were brandishing handguns. The two suspects tied up the couple, both in their mid-to-late 40s, and ransacked the home. The victims were able to get loose and run to a neighbor’s home where they called the police. The victims were not injured. The suspects reportedly took items, including jewelry, from the home.

    Both suspects were men in their late 20s about 5 feet 7 inches tall. One suspect was described as Asian about 145 pounds, wearing a black leather jacket, black sweater and pants. The second suspect was described as Hispanic around 160 pounds. He wore a black jacket and black pants. The suspects reportedly fled in a 2-door, black Mazda with a Mazda sticker in the back windshield and a small antenna; it had may have had Maryland tags.

    Anyone with information about this incident or these suspects is asked to call Crime Solvers at 1-866-411-TIPS (8477) or the police non-emergency number at 703-691-2131.

    Source - http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...tysonsupd2.htm
    June 24, 2005
    en Español

    Media Contact: Sandi Copes
    Phone: (850) 245-0150

    Crist: Home Invaders Who Impersonated Police Sentenced to Life, 50 Years

    TALLAHASSEE - Attorney General Charlie Crist today announced the sentencing of two Miami-Dade County men for their involvement in an armed home invasion and robbery in Pembroke Park following prosecution by the Attorney General's Office of Statewide Prosecution. A Broward County judge sentenced Israel Frometa Lake, 33, to life in prison. His co-defendant, Reinaldo Diaz, 32, was previously sentenced to 50 years in prison. Both men were convicted in May of impersonating an officer, breaking into a home, and committing an armed robbery while threatening the residents of the home with deadly weapons.

    On February 7, 2003, Lake and Diaz gained entry into the victims' Broward mobile home after Lake identified himself as a police officer, wearing a badge around his neck and carrying a gun holstered at his side. Once inside the mobile home, Lake pulled his gun on the victims – a man, his girlfriend and the man's elderly mother – and bound them with plastic handcuffs. The victims were placed in a small bathroom while Lake and Diaz ransacked the home, stealing money, jewelry and the man's handgun. At one point, Lake put his firearm in the man's mouth and demanded more cash and jewelry. Lake and Diaz were later identified by the victims and arrested. At the time of his arrest, Lake had a handgun, badge and plastic handcuffs similar to those used in the robbery.

    "The crimes these two men committed were nothing short of horrific," said Crist. "They abused the notion of trust placed in law enforcement officers, and terrorized individuals and families. The courts made wise choices in removing these criminals from the communities of South Florida."

    Lake and Diaz were found guilty by a jury of armed burglary with assault and battery, two counts of armed robbery and two counts of armed kidnapping. Lake was also found guilty of falsely impersonating a police officer during the commission of a felony. Lake and Diaz have also been charged for similar actions in Miami-Dade and Palm Beach counties, with trials pending in those cases.

    Source - http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.ns...25702A0060D1A9
    These were just the first few links following a search og regular Google (as opposed to News.Google) using keywords; 'impersonation police home invasion'.
    There were 169,000 total citations referenced.

    This ind of thing is happening more and more with regularity as based on results.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Really? On the Federal side, we must get special permission from the judge to go in at night and/or without announcing. We must be able to articulate special circumstances that justify this unusual technique - usually the known or strongly suspected presence of weapons and a violent felon inside the target house. Often, judges are very strict on what they consider 'special' circumstances, and may require further evidence/documentation that a NKW is needed. It's not a rubber stamp, in any case.
    We do too on the local level here in Ohio.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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