Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

This is a discussion on Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by OPFOR I get it, but it's not similar to a NKW (again, except perhaps in the second case, but simply yelling "police" ...

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Thread: Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I get it, but it's not similar to a NKW (again, except perhaps in the second case, but simply yelling "police" isn't exactly a credible impersonation). It's basically bad cops being bad - and rest assured that I'm against that!
    That's the thing, nobody knew the bad cops were being bad.
    It was assumed they were cop cop good cops.
    Also a no knock is just that a no knock. After entry all manner of statements are made including "POLICE!" which is what occurred in those cases with exception of the bad cop NYPD cops.

    - Janq
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  3. #62
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    Janq, I don't want to get nitpicky here, but we're talking about No-Knock Warrants - uniformed cops making a forced entry without knocking. So, of your cases...

    Case 1 - not actually a case at all, but rather an unsubstantiated statement by an interviewer/reporter.

    Case 2 - KNOCKED. Didn't have uniforms, didn't have ID, didn't make entry.

    Case 3 - Again, not a case. Author mentions some specific ruses without examples, but does NOT mention false claims of being police.

    Case 4 - KNOCKED. No uniforms, some sort of ID, no forced entry.

    Case 5 - KNOCKED. No uniforms, no ID, no forced entry.

    Case 6 - KNOCKED. No uniforms, some sort of ID, no forced entry.

    Still no case of uniformed BGs with credible Police placards making a forced entry. Again, I'm not trying to be difficult (I think you know I respect your opinion, and you and I are on the same side of almost every discussion) but these are not what I'm talking about. Should you demand to see ID from anyone not in uniform climbing out of a squad car? Sure, but that's not a NKW (or simulated one). In fact, since all these home invaders knocked, I think we should do away with the knock-and-announce warrant! (I'm kidding, of course.)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    That's the thing, nobody knew the bad cops were being bad.
    It was assumed they were cop cop good cops.
    Also a no knock is just that a no knock. After entry all manner of statements are made including "POLICE!" which is what occurred in those cases with exception of the bad cop NYPD cops.

    - Janq
    But in the first case, no one believed they were cops, and in the second (third, actually) case, the victim knew that they were cops. And in neither case was anyone serving any sort of warrant! They were just being criminals who happened to have badges...there is very little that citizens can do about that, except elect mayors/police comissioners/sheriffs who will root that kind of crap out of their departments...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    But in the first case, no one believed they were cops, and in the second (third, actually) case, the victim knew that they were cops. And in neither case was anyone serving any sort of warrant! They were just being criminals who happened to have badges...there is very little that citizens can do about that, except elect mayors/police comissioners/sheriffs who will root that kind of crap out of their departments...
    No, the enlisted persons case the victims thought the attackers were police. They did not know at first they were anything but police.
    The NYPD case the cops were real cops gone bad. The neighbor did not know they were bad he was just being nosy and asked what they were doing there removing property and having no warrant.
    Neither case had a warrant as they just kicked in the door yellping "Police!" (fake cops) or entered under the guise of being actual police (real cops) only they knew ahead of time the house would be unoccupied thus no need for a 'warrant' nor yelling of "Police!". They expected no resistance in that case. It was upon exit that they ran into the neighbor asking WTH are you guys doing and do you have a warrant...they gave him some conversation that he did not like and asked them to hold while he called the local cops. They boogied on out at that point.

    - Janq
    Last edited by JD; May 2nd, 2008 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Coreceted language workaround.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Janq, I don't want to get nitpicky here, but we're talking about No-Knock Warrants - uniformed cops making a forced entry without knocking. So, of your cases...
    No the question to which I was responding to is how there are people, bad guys, who go about their business impersonating police be they knock or not knock toward purpoe of entry and subsequent robbery/assault.

    I'd quoted your statement of as much in my reply; "...No one has given one single example of BGs coming in with uniforms, long guns, lights, distraction devices, strong verbal commands, etc - because it just doesn't happen..."

    That scenario does happen. Sometimes they, the BGs/BadCops, do knock just before entering by force and in other instances they go through ones door by element of surprise yelling 'Police!' once inside to fake out the victims into submission and compliance.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #66
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    I think there is too much nit picking going on about this post personally. I, along with most of the people on this forum, I am going to try to put as much lead on the target as possible if you come through my door without knocking and identifying yourself first.

    Lets face it, if you are surprised by someone in the middle of the night (or day), by the sound of your door being broken down, your not going to be reading what they have on their shirts, caps or whatever, especially if there are bright lights being shined around in a manner that is consistant with clearing a house.

    I am a light sleeper and wake up at the sound of my 4 yr old walking into the room, so there is a good chance that if people are making formations outside my house, besides the two dogs barking, and my poor sleeping habits, there is a good chance I will be waiting for you when you breach the door.

    I understand the need for no knock warrants in some situations. Very, very rare situations, this isn't some combat zone or other scenario. If the target is a specific individual, that person does have a life, and they get out, they can be tracked, and a definate location can be determined as to where they are. There should be no mistake about the house, apt, or whatever when it comes to busting a door down and going in ready to start a firefight.

    If a mistake is made on the correct address on a no knock warrant and innocent people or an officer is injured or killed in the process, heads should roll, and I mean litterally roll. If a civilian was to make a mistake about something that caused injury or loss of life they would face the entire force of the law, this is not the case when it comes to mistakes by law enforcement, usually it is a monetary settlement. Wow, those are taxpayers dollars anyway. Mistakes like this need to end jobs, retirement, whatever, that will ensure that lives aren't put in jeapardy because someone didn't bother to do enough fact gathering.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #67
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    I am going to try to put as much lead on the target as possible if you come through my door without knocking and identifying yourself first.
    Fair enough, but it every case mentioned with one possible exception, the BG's either DID knock and identify themselves, or they WERE real cops (albeit acting criminally). These situations not only don't apply, they are the OPPOSITE of No-Knock Warrants! In the one case that MIGHT apply (the soldiers allegedly impersonating police), there hasn't been enough information provided to make the claim - i.e. no mention of whether or not they knocked, if they had uniforms/ID, if they came in yelling "police" or simply rang the doorbell and claimed to be cops...

    So, still, not one example of BGs conducting an actual NKW-style invasion while credibly impersonating police. I maintain that it simply doesn't happen, or is so incredibly rare as to be meaningless (paranoia about Big Brother storming into your house in the middle of the night for no reason not withstanding). That's not nitpicking - that's asking for any evidence to support a theory and finding none.

    And again, let me say that the NKW is a specialized tool (like a gun) that should only be used in certain circumstances (like a gun) and then only after other methods have been deemed inappropriate (like a gun), and the person who uses that tool should be held liable for any negligent or careless use (like a gun). And I reckon that's all I have to say about that...my black helicopter is waiting.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #68
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    I've read this entire thread. Honestly I can see both sides of it, but it still scares the daylights out of me.

    I am not up on my local police department uniforms, tactics, riot gear, weapons, catch phrases etc. I don't know the subtle differences between special units, city, county, federal, etc. They will most likely be shining bright lights in my direction which will make identification even more unlikely. They may use some sort of a flash bang device to further disorient me.

    If given only a few seconds to react, and intentionally blinded and disoriented, I'll probably defend my family. If the swat team is any good, I'll probably die. This is what bothers me.

    I may loose my life, or take the life of another because of a paperwork snafu or someone getting lazy, working too many hours, not verifying their work, transposing numbers?

    I have done NOTHING to deserve this kind of treatment, even if it is a mistake. Since I have broken no laws, why would a highly proficient, highly trained swat team be breaking into my house? There is absolutely no reason at all.

    Given the 1-3 seconds to react, I would most likely come to the conclusion that this was in fact a home invasion regardless of what was being shouted.

    Now I need to rant on accountability. Please note this is not a bash on all LEOs, but the whole system needs work. We let LEOs carry guns because they are trained to a higher level.

    We allow them to participate in NKW because of their high level of proficiency and training. Bottom line, if they screw up they should have known better. They were trained for this type of work. Because of that higher level of training they should be held to at least the level of proficiency necessary to become swat or serve NKW.

    This is what would happen to me. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend my family or myself. I may wind up taking the full force of the law (even if I did nothing wrong, followed my training and the law to the letter) but the LEO who invaded my home BY MISTAKE would be in most cases protected from any wrong doing.

    Furthermore this hits really close to home for me. I live in a small apartment complex with a strange address, the entrance is not on the street where the number should be. The entrance in on a small side street. There is an almost identical complex across the street. We get people looking for the other complex all the time.

    Just my .02
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  10. #69
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    Holdcard, I sympathize, believe me. I do not advocate wonton use of NKWs, nor do I think departments that make mistakes like this should get off scott-free. My points are simply these:

    NKWs are a valuable, useful tool that, when used properly, make it safer for both the LEOs and the residents.

    The chances that you will be the target of a mistaken NKW are very, very, very small.

    The chances that you will be the victim of a home invasion that credibly simulates a NKW (seriously, if the BGs are using distraction devices, long guns with mounted lights, and multiple points of entry on you, you are deep, deep inside the hurt locker) are very, very, very, very small.

    LEOs/Departments that, though negligence, cause harm to an innocent person should be held criminally and legally responsible - regardless of the method of their negligence.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #70
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    OPFOR

    I would say for the most part we are in agreement. How do we fix it? How do we make those responsible accountable for their actions?

    I do want the bad guys put away and I don't want any LEO to be killed or injured in the process. I guess I'm OK with rough tactics when necessary and clearly warranted, but how are we supposed to react when they are not justified, necessary or warranted?

    When policemen break the law, there is no law. Just a fight for survival.
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  12. #71
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    NKW increases the level of BOTH innocent(mistaken) civilians and officers getting killed

    so we should allow this increase risk of life in the name of "getting one BG off the streets ? "

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    so we should allow this increase risk of life in the name of "getting one BG off the streets ? "
    I can see OPFOR's point. He's in agreement with us that they need to be done properly. I can also see the validity of a sudden overpowering force to take the bad guy down.

    I can see a good team doing just that with no injuries (except maybe the bad guy). I just wish us lowly civilians were afforded the same courtesy
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  14. #73
    AMH
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    I carry a sidearm at all times. If this happened to me, then my .45 would have been out real fast.

    Additional, I keep other weapons cocked, locked, and ready to rock. My place would have been a freaking blood bath.

    I hope the homeowner doesn’t get any charges.

    These no-knock warrants need to stop. This is a (in my humble opinion) a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment.
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  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Fair enough, but it every case mentioned with one possible exception, the BG's either DID knock and identify themselves, or they WERE real cops (albeit acting criminally). These situations not only don't apply, they are the OPPOSITE of No-Knock Warrants! In the one case that MIGHT apply (the soldiers allegedly impersonating police), there hasn't been enough information provided to make the claim - i.e. no mention of whether or not they knocked, if they had uniforms/ID, if they came in yelling "police" or simply rang the doorbell and claimed to be cops...

    So, still, not one example of BGs conducting an actual NKW-style invasion while credibly impersonating police. I maintain that it simply doesn't happen, or is so incredibly rare as to be meaningless (paranoia about Big Brother storming into your house in the middle of the night for no reason not withstanding). That's not nitpicking - that's asking for any evidence to support a theory and finding none.

    And again, let me say that the NKW is a specialized tool (like a gun) that should only be used in certain circumstances (like a gun) and then only after other methods have been deemed inappropriate (like a gun), and the person who uses that tool should be held liable for any negligent or careless use (like a gun). And I reckon that's all I have to say about that...my black helicopter is waiting.
    Opfor, excuse me, but I think your missing the whole point of the thread. This isn't about bad guys, or other folks abusing power or anything like that. Sure, Janq, brought up the possibility of those things happening, and gave some examples of what has taken place. I believe his point, (I am sure Janq will correct me if I an wrong) is that you just don't know who is busting the door down if there isn't proper notice given. We are all (assumption here) law abiding citizens, we have no reason for anyone to be busting through our doors, day or night.

    This thread started and should remain on the issue of the police entering the wrong house and getting shot at by the occupant. I am glad that no one died in this particular case, but the possibility is really there for innocent people, leo or occupant to die during these no knock warrants. The fact is, during these types of events, innocent people have died. If it was a straight forward procedure, there would be no deaths or even injuries. The occupant would just sit there and comply with all the orders because he knew the people busting into the house were law enforcement. That is not the case when it isn't clear who is busting down the door. Many people instictively take a fight response and that is when bad things happen.

    Yes it is rare for innocent people to die during these types of action, but to the people that loose loved ones because of these things, no excuse is satisfactory. Not even, it only happens rarely Mrs. Smith, sorry your husband is dead.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    If the NKW saves just one life, shouldn't we encourage the practice? Just because it's a government power doesn't mean that it is intrinsically and utterly evil.
    Fine, allow them only in such cases where a no-knock is the only suitable method to prevent the death of an innocent. No busting down doors looking for pot, office football pools, exercising arrest warrants for people who leave their home every day, etc. Unless Hannibal Lecter is inside preparing to slice someone up as his evening meal there is no reason whatsoever to break through a door EXCEPT to justify all that money spent on tactical gear, satisfy an urge for an adrenaline rush, and continue to pursue the bogus WAR ON DRUGS.

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