Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) - Page 6

Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

This is a discussion on Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by OPFOR And again, let me say that the NKW is a specialized tool (like a gun) that should only be used in ...

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  1. #76
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    And again, let me say that the NKW is a specialized tool (like a gun) that should only be used in certain circumstances (like a gun)
    Like busting office football pools and looking for pot... Sorry, KNW and the ever popular "Knock Knock, 1, 2, 3 BOOM" version are widely used for things that have nothing to do with the immediate saving of human life.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    and then only after other methods have been deemed inappropriate (like a gun),
    Go through the CATO list and find a raid gone wrong that could not have been handled through patience and some creativity. Sorry, the other methods are NOT being employed regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    and the person who uses that tool should be held liable for any negligent or careless use (like a gun). And I reckon that's all I have to say about that...my black helicopter is waiting.
    Home many officers who make a mistake on the address, destroy a home or kill a citizen in such raids are held CRIMINALLY LIABLE? Not many. How many judges who sign off on these bogus warrants are held criminally liable for mistakes? Even fewer. Everyone may feel bad about it but in the end the consolation is "They were just doing their job." That is bogus, their job is not to break into the homes of innocent citizens.

    You claim that none of the cop impersonator break ins match your requirements, well how many of the dead citizen LEO break ins match your requirements for a properly executed and justifiable raid? Please find one where a human life was in peril if the raid were NOT conducted.


  2. #77
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread really took off since I read it last. I had a lot of catching up to do. I have to say that Holdcard pretty much said most of what I was thinking.

    I believe that this is a slippery slope in so many ways. On one hand, you have the desire to limit government powers inside the home. Which is the base form of the anti-NKW stance. And I agree wholeheartedly. One of my favorite quotes is from Ben Franklin:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Franklin
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    On the other hand there is a definite desire to save the lives of our LEOs and get more of the BGs behind bars and clean up society. NKWs are a very useful and powerful tool if used properly. I agree with this wholeheartedly too.

    I've had some problems with someone snooping around my house after midnight since I moved in here. That's why I bought my guns, that's how I ended up joining this forum. Let's face it, at 2am with someone busting down my door my policy is going to be shoot first and ask questions later. Usually, I'm awake at that time because I'm waiting to see if they come back. So I'd be more alert and able to identify a real LEO. But if I'm woken up, I'll probably shoot someone. I don't have a lot of time to make the right decision, and being wrong could cost my wife and two daughters their lives.

    The LEOs have a lot more time to make the right decision than I do. And if it was a properly executed warrant, they would be within their rights to shoot me. But if they're at my house executing a NKW it wasn't properly researched and executed, unless my life changes in ways I don't expect in the future. Plus, they will be wearing body armor and I won't. I don't have any armor piercing rounds, and I load JHPs, so they should be safe if I make a COM shot, which is what I would plan on doing. At that point, I think I would have my senses about me enough to know that I just shot a LEO and drop my weapon.

    How about a compromise? I agree that KNWs are a useful and powerful tool when used properly. The government agrees that if I am accidentally the victim of an improper NKW, I am not held liable for my first couple of shots. I would be completely devastated to kill a LEO. I don't know if I could ever get over that. But chances are slim of that if I'm aiming properly. But the root cause of the entire incident is shoddy work on the side of LEO. I would never be involved if they hadn't busted down my door.

    Plus, they pay for my damaged house.

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    Many no-knock warrents are authorized based on the information of an informant. Lots of these informants are career criminals. Career criminals are not above lying.

  4. #79
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Here is an update in the paper. "The case will be reviewed by the Hennepin County attorney's office, but authorities said it's doubtful that Khang will be charged with any crime." DOUBTFUL!!!! You are darn right it is doubtful. He did nothing wrong. He protected his family and home which is his right. Man it chaps me when I read quotes like this. It is like they are saying "we're keeping an eye on you peons just to make sure you don't overstep your bounds". The police at least had the decency to apologize which in itself is pretty unusual.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/12578176.html
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  5. #80
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    Originally Posted by Ben Franklin


    Welcome to the forum, Ben!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    NKW increases the level of BOTH innocent(mistaken) civilians and officers getting killed

    so we should allow this increase risk of life in the name of "getting one BG off the streets ? "
    First, that's a pretty broad statement that the vast majority of LEOs who actually serve warrants would hotly contest. Care to back it up, or is it just another "it's true because I said so" claim?

    Second, it's not about "getting one BG off the streets," but even if it was, might it be worth it? We don't know, because these BGs are off the streets, and aren't commiting crimes. What if a NKW had been served on Cho the day before he went to VT? That's 30+ lives saved that no one would ever know about.

    I swear, the cows some folks hold sacred never cease to amaze me...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMH View Post
    These no-knock warrants need to stop. This is a (in my humble opinion) a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment.
    Your welcome to your opinion. The constitutional scholars and courts of the land, by and large, disagree with you.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musketeer View Post
    Fine, allow them only in such cases where a no-knock is the only suitable method to prevent the death of an innocent. No busting down doors looking for pot, office football pools, exercising arrest warrants for people who leave their home every day, etc. Unless Hannibal Lecter is inside preparing to slice someone up as his evening meal there is no reason whatsoever to break through a door EXCEPT to justify all that money spent on tactical gear, satisfy an urge for an adrenaline rush, and continue to pursue the bogus WAR ON DRUGS.
    Thank you, Musketeer, I think we all know your stance on the war on drugs. The problem is, that's not what we're talking about...

    I agree - NKWs should only be used when there is a credible threat to officer safety that can be lessened by its use. They should be meticulously researched to ensure that they are, in fact, the safest and surest way of effecting the arrest. They should be meticulously planned, checked, and double checked to ensure that the most material of facts, i.e. the address and occupants, are correct. When these facts are not in place, keep working until they are (unless there is an immediate threat of further death, for example a rampage shooter is believed to be in a certain house, reloading/planning his next attack - but this exception would be extremely rare.

    I just question why folks have such deeply emotional knee-jerk reactions on this subject, and immediately scream about banning the tool instead of making sure it is used properly and within the boundaries of its intended use. It stinks (highly) of hypocrisy, IMO.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Opfor, excuse me, but I think your missing the whole point of the thread. This isn't about bad guys, or other folks abusing power or anything like that. Sure, Janq, brought up the possibility of those things happening, and gave some examples of what has taken place. I believe his point, (I am sure Janq will correct me if I an wrong) is that you just don't know who is busting the door down if there isn't proper notice given. We are all (assumption here) law abiding citizens, we have no reason for anyone to be busting through our doors, day or night.

    This thread started and should remain on the issue of the police entering the wrong house and getting shot at by the occupant. I am glad that no one died in this particular case, but the possibility is really there for innocent people, leo or occupant to die during these no knock warrants. The fact is, during these types of events, innocent people have died. If it was a straight forward procedure, there would be no deaths or even injuries. The occupant would just sit there and comply with all the orders because he knew the people busting into the house were law enforcement. That is not the case when it isn't clear who is busting down the door. Many people instictively take a fight response and that is when bad things happen.

    Yes it is rare for innocent people to die during these types of action, but to the people that loose loved ones because of these things, no excuse is satisfactory. Not even, it only happens rarely Mrs. Smith, sorry your husband is dead.
    Bullseye Farron! ^^
    You are dead center in the black on all assumptions and points.

    NKWs are not intrinsically a bad thing.
    But, obviously there is a good amount of documentation toward it's misuse, abuse, 'mistakes' _and_ criminals applying similar tactics enough so that Joe and Jane Average just might not know what the heck to do and may by nature, fear, or heck plain common sense decide to fire/return fire such as the first news story posted about the man who used a shotgun to defend his home against legitimate police at the wrong location.
    There is little time to look out the window to see if there are cop cars outside or to even notice 'Police' logos on vests. All you got are movement, people yelling at you, flashlights, and noises down your hall coming toward you when normally ones house should be silent and the individual knows he himself is not a criminal and woul likely not think to himself; "Hey this is an 'NKW' incident where the cops have made a mistake. Let me sit back and comply as they come through my bedroom door".
    Some people may think like this and react as such while others like the 80+ yr. old grandma who last year was victimized similarly by three corrupt cops who at the time were allegedly serving a NKW on the premise of 'drugs' she reacted humanly by being in fear, grabbing her pistol, and putting lead down range which in her case she did to a high degree of success...just before those same now proven to be corrupt cops killed her in her home. At the time she di not know they were cops (plain clothed detectives acting like they were straight out of 'The Shield'), nor did she know they had a warrant of any sort. All she knew was her front door was busted down with no knocking prior and the rest was a hell of alot of noise, fear, and wrong.

    OPFOR I'm not for banning of the NKWs.
    I am though thinking they should be used marginally and when applied be done with a minimum of triple confirmation from independent and credible sources toward the location, activity there in, and the structures composition room by room.
    Taking the supposed word of CIs and junkies along with following hand drawn maps from non architectural design students such as CIs and junkies seems to me to be a completely cavalier way of handling what is a potentially volatile method of doing business and applying lawful suspension of a persons civil rights. The results of which place many people in danger be they Bgs, innocents, good guys, and police too.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    OPFOR

    I would say for the most part we are in agreement. How do we fix it? How do we make those responsible accountable for their actions?

    I do want the bad guys put away and I don't want any LEO to be killed or injured in the process. I guess I'm OK with rough tactics when necessary and clearly warranted, but how are we supposed to react when they are not justified, necessary or warranted?

    When policemen break the law, there is no law. Just a fight for survival.
    Billy Jack
    How you react will be based on the totality of the circumstances. Most folks immediately default to "I'm shooting anything that moves!" when this question comes up, and they may very well be right to do so. What I was trying to point out is that the idea of a home invasion that actually resembles a NKW service is infinitely remote. There is no evidence of any home invasion being prefaced by multiple entry points being made, distraction devices being employed, and uniformed, long gun toting, POLICE emblazoned people coming in en mass to secure the building. (There is, however, a lot of evidence that says folks who ring your doorbell and claim to be police may not be - so check their uniforms and ask for creds - and possibly call 911 to verify - if you see someone who claims to be police KNOCKING at your door.)

    We fix it by limiting the scope of NKWs to actual officer safety cases. By holding the planners accountable for negligence. By holding the officers who swear to the warrant request accountable if they have been negligent in checking their information. In short, by using them as they were intended to be used, not by banning them entirely.

    I just have to shrug at the reactions of some folks when this issue comes up... "If it saves just one life, we should ban it!" isn't something you expect to hear on a gun site... Nobody says we should take cars away from cops, even though civilians are sometimes killed in car accidents with cop cars. Nobody says we should take Tasers away from cops (well, except the UN) because some folks are killed by Tasers. It's just this issue, which has a massively high success rate, BTW, that sends people into an emotional tailspin. I understand the gut level impact of it - I certainly don't want my door kicked in by the po-po at oh-dark-thirty - but I also know that the chances of this happening are right about at the same level as me being bitten by a shark or struck by lightning...so I don't dedicate all the emotional vitriol to it that seems to be the norm from some.

    But, you know, trying to use logic in an emotional argument doesn’t work out too well…
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #86
    Ex Member Array ibez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    First, that's a pretty broad statement that the vast majority of LEOs who actually serve warrants would hotly contest. Care to back it up, or is it just another "it's true because I said so" claim?

    Second, it's not about "getting one BG off the streets," but even if it was, might it be worth it? We don't know, because these BGs are off the streets, and aren't commiting crimes. What if a NKW had been served on Cho the day before he went to VT? That's 30+ lives saved that no one would ever know about.

    I swear, the cows some folks hold sacred never cease to amaze me...
    care to prove to us that NKW decrease the risk of life lost over a knock and announce warrant ?
    you come breaking down my door without knocking when I know for a fact I'm not doing any illegal activity in my residence , you believe in that 2 seconds that a BG can shoot me I'm gonna sit there and wonder if you're GG or BG ?
    your family will be preparing your eulogy

    you can argue that from 6 feet under

    you maybe watching too many Police TV where the GG always win
    .

  12. #87
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    One other item...Police have been applying no knock warrants and warrantless raids since forever in America.
    it wasn't lawful to do so until very much recently but the practice has been in play and use up to just before passing of the NKW allowance. And people be they BGs and innocents have suffered them.
    As such thanks to unlawful, illegal, and/or lawful but (with a warrant) but sketchy actions of those police from the past recent and far away many people have learned or developed a distrust for anyone who yells 'Police' be they real police in police uniform, or narcs/undercovers looking like otherwise regular people of the street, and/or criminals too using as much as a ruse.

    I'm not saying this is an excuse to shoot at legitimate lawful and properly acting warrant having NKW action cops.
    It's just that to figure anything other than best case scenario compliance by the person(s) on the other side of the door upon entry might be asking a bit much, on the streets.

    Below is a link to even more stories of same be they 'official' NKW or simply police busting in doors at the wee hours of the night, not knocking at all or knock not heard because everyone is dead asleep at the far end of their home/apt., and busting down doors resulting in innocent citizen injury and/or death.

    Botched Raids & Collateral Casualties in the Drug War
    http://www.druglibrary.org/think/~jnr/botched.htm
    Note: These are all pre current NKW legislation situations dating from the early 90s.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #88
    Member Array JoshL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Your welcome to your opinion. The constitutional scholars and courts of the land, by and large, disagree with you.
    Courts and lawmakers have also stripped us of our 2nd Amendment rights, but that doesn't make it right, does it?

    It worries me how militarized the police are becoming. There should be a difference in a soldier and a cop. Here's a good article that was in Popular Mechanics about a year ago:

    SWAT Overkill: The Danger of a Paramilitary Police Force

    And, I know it's from the Cato Institute, but a good read:

    Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America

  14. #89
    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    How you react will be based on the totality of the circumstances. Most folks immediately default to "I'm shooting anything that moves!" when this question comes up, and they may very well be right to do so.
    I agree, I don't really have the shoot anything that moves mentality. My family moves, and so does my dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    What I was trying to point out is that the idea of a home invasion that actually resembles a NKW service is infinitely remote. There is no evidence of any home invasion being prefaced by multiple entry points being made, distraction devices being employed, and uniformed, long gun toting, POLICE emblazoned people coming in en mass to secure the building. (There is, however, a lot of evidence that says folks who ring your doorbell and claim to be police may not be - so check their uniforms and ask for creds - and possibly call 911 to verify - if you see someone who claims to be police KNOCKING at your door.)
    The reality of many things is remote (fire extinguishers, needing my firearm, etc.), even if I was totally awake and coherent the sheer speed at which things would happen may cause me to react more by instinct than by logic. Would I actually have time to recognize all the gear you mentioned? It may click after the first few shots, but by then it would be too late.

    I can't say for sure, but the very spirit of a NKW is to happen so fast and furious that the BG is overwhelmed. Placed in that same situation, I don't know how I'd react. Muscle memory, instinct and training would probably kick in (not to mention "pucker factor").

    As far as a knock goes, yes I would ask for credentials and may even call 911 to be sure. I'm not sure how the LEOs would react to that, it's never come up so far.

    I would like to see the accountability factor improved all the way around. I'd like to see some responsibility on the part of everyone involved and steps taken to fix what's broken.

    I'm not a judge or LEO, but it seems to me that if I signed something or executed an order based on a mistake, I'd be pretty upset.
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  15. #90
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    The fact that mistakes can and do happen will never change. We need to do whatever we can to decrease the chance of these mistakes.

    The thing that scares me most about this is the governments reaction. They say the victim probably wont be charged? The fact that they would even consider charging him is a clear abuse of power to me.

    I cant imagine anyone would even consider charging a victim with a crime. He was in his own home protecting himself. He was not commiting a crime. To charge him,or threaten to charge him is just a scare tactic used to silence him. He had every right to protect himself from invaders.

    Michael

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