Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

This is a discussion on Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by OPFOR There is no evidence of any home invasion being prefaced by multiple entry points being made, distraction devices being employed, and ...

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Thread: Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged)

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    There is no evidence of any home invasion being prefaced by multiple entry points being made, distraction devices being employed, and uniformed, long gun toting, POLICE emblazoned people coming in en mass to secure the building.
    The home invasion does not have to be a spot-on rendition of a SWAT raid, down to the last detail. The LE-impersonation invasion only has to look plausibly like one to a non-LE-familiar home owner who was asleep 3 seconds ago. Shouting "police" and ANY uniform-like clothes would do. If home invaders disguised as police can gain entry from awake residents via knocking and demanding to be let in, then they can definitely fool the sleepy resident in a dark house.

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    care to prove to us that NKW decrease the risk of life lost over a knock and announce warrant ?
    you come breaking down my door without knocking when I know for a fact I'm not doing any illegal activity in my residence , you believe in that 2 seconds that a BG can shoot me I'm gonna sit there and wonder if you're GG or BG ?
    your family will be preparing your eulogy

    you can argue that from 6 feet under

    you maybe watching too many Police TV where the GG always win
    .
    OK, Mr. Bauer. Say hi to Chuck Norris and Charles Bronson for me...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #93
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    So, most of us are in agreement, then:

    1) NKWs must be properly researched and planned.

    2) NKWs must be a tool of last resort, only authorized if there are real, articulable circumstances that would make a N&AW intolerably dangerous to LEOs.

    3) If you wake up to find a half-dozen (or more) men in your home, armed with long guns, you're screwed whether they are BGs or LEOs.

    4) It will be difficult to determine if the people in your house are or are not real LEOs in the heat of the moment. However, there are indicators to look for, and it may be possible to make an informed decision in the seconds you have available to you.

    5) Victims of "wrong address" NKWs who are in reasonable fear for their life should not be charged with any crimes for responding appropriately, and any damages to their homes/property should be paid for by the responsible department.

    6) Departments/planners who request NKWs without justification, or who negligently allow a NKW to be served on an innocent party, should be held crminally and civilly liable for their actions.

    7) Bad cops are bad cops, and there isn't much we can do about it. If a guy does have a badge and creds and so on, we are required as citizens to obey their lawful commands under almost all circumstances. If a real cop knocks on your door, presents what appears to be a warrant, and demands entry - you had best comply. We can only trust that the vast majority of cops are not dirty, and submit to the warrant; to do otherwise is anarchy.

    8) Tools are tools, and can be used for good or evil.

    9) People will quickly and unashamedly resort to the same emotional arguments that they claim to despise from folks opposed to their viewpoints, as soon as the topic of debate is their own sacred cow.

    I think if you look at my posts and my points with any level of objectivity, you'll see that I am not some maniac cop looking to trample the rights of citizens in pursuit of the roach in your ash tray. I am a person who wants everyone to go home alive at the end of the day, and I want all the tools - properly employed - in my tool box to ensure that that happens. RLTW, Cheers, and toodle-ooh.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #94
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    1, yes
    2, yes, assuming that the nkw, doesn't make it intolerably dangerous for innocent civilians. Leo's lives are not worth any more than an innocent civilian.
    3, yes, somebody is screwed
    4, yes, but there many not actually be seconds, more like milliseconds, lots of rounds can be fired in seconds.
    5, responsible department are paying with tax dollars, how about making the responsible person pay out of their own pocket.
    6, yes
    7, yes, most times.
    8, yes
    9, yep that works for everyone on both sides of any fence.

    yep, no one on this forum wants anyone, leo or innocent civilian to die because of a screw up. Leo's want all the tools in their tool box, employed properly to be able to go home every day. Civilians want those same tools in the tool box of the Leo, employed properly for the leo, and the innocent civilian to go home at the end of the day, but when there is a screw up, they want that tool box to be slammed shut with the same force that it is shut on the civilian that has done the same act. That is were there appears to be the vast discrepency in how laws are enforced. That would be back to number 6, but that seldom happens I fear.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #95
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    OPFOR:
    That last post was a good one and I salute you.

    I'm an LEO myself, or at least I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I'm not a "fan" on NKW's. I do recognize that they, like all tools, have their place in our toolbox though. My chances of being involved on a NKW, right now, range from "slim to none" due to who I work for, but that could change.

    Lately it seems that there has been an "over-abundant" use of NKW's or "Hitting the wrong house" type situations. What will happen, IMO, is that the "baby will get thrown out with the bathwater" and NKW's will be banned. This is unfortunate, becaus if used properly with proper preparation it is a very effective "tool".

    As a homeowner, law-abiding citizen of this country, as well as being an LEO, NKW's go against the principles of that document that I swore to defend. Alas, the world isn't as black and white as we would like it to be.

    Take care and stay safe and enjoy swimming in your pool on Christmas Day.

    Biker

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    What if a NKW had been served on Cho the day before he went to VT? That's 30+ lives saved that no one would ever know about.

    I swear, the cows some folks hold sacred never cease to amaze me...
    What if they simply had arrested him when he walked out of his apartment? As there was no warrant for him it really doesn't matter. He could have been hit on the head by a chuck of blue ice falling from an airliner at 20,000 feat and wound up just as incapable of conducting his attack. Should airliners around the nation open up their holding tanks in flight?

    I never thought holding the COTUS as a sacred cow was considered amazing... then again I never had to debate it with a LEO in favor of conducting paramilitary assaults against the citizenry.

  8. #97
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    (There is, however, a lot of evidence that says folks who ring your doorbell and claim to be police may not be - so check their uniforms and ask for creds - and possibly call 911 to verify - if you see someone who claims to be police KNOCKING at your door.)

    We fix it by limiting the scope of NKWs to actual officer safety cases. By holding the planners accountable for negligence. By holding the officers who swear to the warrant request accountable if they have been negligent in checking their information. In short, by using them as they were intended to be used, not by banning them entirely.
    So someone pounds on my door yelling "POLICE" and, assuming I have the time to respond, I shout back "I am calling 911, please wait" only to have the door blown off its hinges and the criminals(?) blow into my home. Given that I carry in my house thanks to a fair share of home invasions in the area, including LEO impersonators, what do you think the outcome will be?

    I am all for limiting them to issues of officer safety. When exactly is it safer for the officers to storm the residence of a suspected violent and armed criminal who may or may not be prepared to repel and assault at that moment rather than grabbing him as he walks to his car or engaging in a standoff?

  9. #98
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    Sigh... Musketeer, what do you do for a living? Sales manager/engineer, right? Remind me to tell you how you do your job (which I have never done) all wrong, and suggest many other things that I have never done that would be better...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #99
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    Musketeer, I think maybe you're missing what OPFOR is really trying to say. It looks as though he agrees that NKW are over used and there needs to be some accountability.

    I'm not an LEO so I don't really understand when or where a specific tool is to be properly employed. From a permit holders standpoint I hate to hear someone say that all guns should be banned because some idiot misused one.

    As a permit holder I keep my tools handy, but do my best not to have to use them. My firearm has a very specific, narrow window of use. When it is appropriate to use it I definately want to have it around.

    I think that is the point OPFOR is trying to make. Don't ban the NKW, just enforce the existing laws before and after obtaining one and make the chain of command accountable for it's actions.

    One of the ways we vote in this country is with our dollars. If it starts costing them money things will change. It's just my opinion, but I think an all out ban would not be in our best interest. I do think they are getting too common though and something needs to be done, I'm just not sure an all out ban is the answer.

    Respectfully,

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  11. #100
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Something similar happened in Atlanta, GA not to long ago and an elderly woman with a gun was killed during the mistaken raid. Repercussions are still being decided.

  12. #101
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    I've said it already, and I'm going to say it again- This really isnt about NKW's- its about the piss poor planning beforehand. I write a lot of search warrants, and I'm really wondering how in the world they can get them signed, and hit the wrong house.
    Also, for those Chuck Norris Jr Rangers out there... if you engage any SWAT worth a hoot, you're not going to be the "winner".
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #102
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    A different type of "Home Invasion"

    I honestly don't know how he could have done anything differently, ideas?

    http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline...an-shoots.html


    Sorry, did not see post.
    Last edited by dcunited; December 22nd, 2007 at 12:21 AM. Reason: did not see current thread
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  14. #103
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    The civilian is lucky to be alive

    I am surprised he was not shot dead after firing upon the LEOs. I have heard of this problem before happening. I do not think they should charge civilian with any charges since they went into the wrong unit They think there might have been a language barrier. Uh duh of course there was a language barrier. Most the time when LEOs kick in doors they announce themselves and then go in. Maybe he couldn't hear them or quite possibly in this day and age of English not be spoken or spoken well by most minorities maybe he just plain couldn't understand them. Any case should be an interesting topic to follow.

  15. #104
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    Nightmare scenario!

  16. #105
    dom
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    What I find amazing is a neighbor says they heard 20-30 shots fired, but it is reported the only hits were scored by the home owner, on 2 different officers.

    Assuming the round count is accurate, and the homeowner had your typical 5 or 6 round shotgun, the officers must have gone 0 for 15, or maybe even 0 for 25. Meawhile, the untrained civilian hits 2... A great example of the advantage the stationary gunman has in a home clearing operation...

    Glad all the residents made it through unharmed. And I hope the DA doesn't decide to press charges on him for acting to defend his family.

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