Hey guys, this one is alread running here.
This is a discussion on Bad Info Leads Cops to Wrong House, 2 Officers Shot: MN (Merged) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Hey guys, this one is alread running here. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=37742...
"fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand
I suppose all you can do is "know your target" before you open fire. That'll work until the BG's start dressing like SWAT!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
Thank God no one got killed. I personally don't partake in illegal activities so if I heard my door being kicked in, I'd be going for my gun too.
I had a guy trying to get in my house through the front door one night. I thought it was a home invasion being attemped. I took a shooting stance anout 15 feet from the door at a 45 degree angle with my 357. My wife was on the phone with 911. I started yelling at him and he came back with some pretty bad answers which intensified the situtation. He kept trying to open the door. If that door would have opened, he was getting shot. Long story made short, cops came and he was at the wrong house. He thought I was his buddy messing with him. He was pretty humbled to find out he had a 357 pointing right at him on the other side of the door. The deputies told me I did the right thing and didn't blame me for defending my family and home.
"Deine Papieren bitte?" or "ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ !"
(Choose only one)
NRA Endowment Member
"I bark at no man's bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is." -- David Crockett
We've had some screw ups even up here on drug raids hitting the wrong house. So far, no human has been killed. I believe 1 dog was killed in the Escanaba area by the police, and 1 officer got his arm broken by an old man defending his family north of Marquette since no one took the time to ID themselves. Better recon is a good thought.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
So should this happen, what are a home owner's rights? Can you ask to see ID or warrant before disarming/surrendering? Or should you surrender and hope home invaders don't wise up and quit knocking?
How about contacting local LEO and saying "Hey, I don't want to shoot you, so just knock and I'll surrender after I verify you're legit."
I understand that in some cases, targets wouldn't have time to get to weapons, but the way my house is laid out, I would most likely have time to arm and prepare. So is the NKW more for evidence preservation, since safety isn't the advantage? Or would they flashbang my bedroom? Can someone explain this a little more clearly?
"Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am."
A lot depends on the type of crimes and historys that are involved. Typically in a blue collar or drug crime, there is no time for small talk. Its goes quick and everyone gets secured. If you even have thoughts of going for a gun, it doesnt matter how quick you think you are, you are not going to like the outcome. I'm not trying to sound tough or scary, its just the way it is.
If its a white collar type of warrant, things can go a little more smooth and nice, just because of the nature. There is exceptions to every rule though of course.
Whom ever says that NKW is not to the advantage of the officers safety simply does not know what they are talking about. I've never seen a crack dealer that answers his door when the police come knocking, and simply allows them to come on in and "discuss" things over tea and crackers.
"Just blame Sixto"
Good to see you back up & at 'em, SIXTO.
And therein lies the rub. What percentage of "oops, wrong house" NKW's, or K&AW's are acceptable?
Personally, I don't care if it's a no-knock, or a knock & announce. If you're doing it in the middle of the night, you might oughta have the right place.
Our government, at the city, county, state and federal level have grown real fond of the "zero-tolerance" line. When it comes to kicking in the doors of innocent citizens, my opinion is that we should have zero tolerance, too.
It's easy to grow complacent and forget that the morons we elect to office are the morons that are supposed to be working for us. Of course, the best, and most brilliant among us don't run for office.
The government has and attempts to maintain a monopoly on the use of force, that is just the nature of governments. In the case of the US, I believe they mostly use it for the common good. That being said, this force must be limited because I have no choice who to accept force from.
NKWs may assist in catching felons but it puts everyone involved at a higher risk that must be justified. Not just are the LEO and criminal at risk; neighbors, girl-friends, kids and other bystanders are at added risk as well. I believe the immediate threat of loss of life is really the only way to justify putting that many people in danger. The threat to an arresting LEO is not realized until the arrest is to take place, meaning it can be avoided.
One other thought, how does this relate to Castle Domain laws? If I am protecting my home, does that debunk all else, and with that should I have any reason to expect people wearing Police to be that and not protect my home?
Maybe we should not do away with NKW but the rules should definately be more defined. I do not mean to attack anyone personally, I would like to see a restriction on this policy to save lives because I see it fundementally different from the right to bear arms because it is used by the monopoly of power, not citizens.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The Two Towers)
Interesting and scary story spy1, but no SWAT team is going to simply crash in the door with nothing more than a phone call to go on.
"Just blame Sixto"
Here's a whole page of links to "very few planned/executed" incidents, for everyone's information.
And, no, limiting the militarization of the police is NOT like banning all guns. In fact, it was these kinds of incidents the 2d and 4th Amendments were designed to prevent.
IMHO, most LEO's are somewhat addicted to the adrenaline rush of the job. I mean, why else be a LEO? Just so you can write parking tickets? I don't think so.
I'm betting that the LEO's signing up for the SWAT teams are probably true "adrenaline junkies", looking for the ultimate rush. And what better way to get it than a paramilitary-style mission? Exciting for them, but very dangerous for us citizens.
'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi
glad noone got killed. i fully understand the problem with bad intell during a raid (source is absolutly certain bg is in specific house, we go in and find out bg left three days prior). its the only reason i don't like how no knocks are done. if theres even the slightest hint that the intel is bad cordon the area off and knock. if its realy the badguys your a lot more certain to get them, if they aren't the badguys its less likely for innocent people to get killed. but thats only my oppinion and im not nor have i ever been a police officer.
"Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
Every well-bred petty crook knows: the small concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting.