Could we be winning the illegal immigrant war? - Page 2

Could we be winning the illegal immigrant war?

This is a discussion on Could we be winning the illegal immigrant war? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Agave, you mentioned construction cost would go up,. probably so, but then so would quality. Here in the Puget sound area Ilegal aliens are putting ...

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Thread: Could we be winning the illegal immigrant war?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Agave, you mentioned construction cost would go up,. probably so, but then so would quality. Here in the Puget sound area Ilegal aliens are putting local construction people out of work and forcing those who do find work to work for less. The Ilegals work for less and do not do quality work. Most do not have their own tools. It used to be that every carpenter had their own set of tools, now customers are having to pay rental for tools on top of the agreed construction cost for a lower quality work.

    There have been a lot of arrest lately of Ilegal aliens in this area and it really hasn't hurt our economy, but gives it a boost because some of the out of work construction people can now go back to work, construction cost go up a little but the customers have less to complain about.


  2. #17
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agave View Post
    Construction is one example. The cost of construction would likely skyrocket when we have to depend on a very small number of natives and legal alien workers to do drywall, brick, and other artisans' crafts. As well, the work would be incredibly slow.
    Why would the work done by Americans be incredibly slow? And the fact is that illegal steal the jobs of Americans and their employers are complicit with their flagrant violation of the law. The old 'Illegals do the work American won't do' is simply a lie, which is proved every time they round up the criminal and send them back to where they came from.


    Agriculture is another example. We don't really have machines that pick tomatoes and strawberries. When we have to rely on natives to harvest, we are going to pay a very high price for our chowstuffs.
    This is another myth. The cost of labor is a very small component of the price of vegetables. The main cost is transportation and the farming operations. It is estiamted that having American do the work will increase prices by less than 5%. The $1.00 head of lettuce will be $1.05 and we will have provided jobs for Americans that are now on welfare.


    I fail to see how that illegal migrant workers cause suffering. I hear that they are on social security and welfare. I hear that they don't pay taxes. Perhaps this is true to a very small degree; perhaps a few are beating the system; but I guarantee that there more "Americans" that are on social security benefits and not paying taxes than there are migrant workers.
    Arguing that Americans sometimes do not pay taxes is not an argument for illegals not paying taxes. Many times illegals are payed under the tabe, so no, taxes are not taken out of their paychecks. After all, since they do not have SS numbers they would quickly be found out and [hopefully] deported.

    Worse, of course, is the fact these illegals steal our hospital services and our educational facilities. Our schools are already overcrowded. Having people who broke the law, do not care about following the law, take American jobs and then turn around and abuse our health services is an abomination. Yes, abuse. Without insurance, the only way these illegals get medical care is to infiltrate emergency rooms. And we treat them! In fact, in Southern Arizona it is illegal for emergency rooms to even ask for insurance before treatment so as not to 'discriminate' against criminals.

    I personally know many illegal immigrants. None of them file on 15 April.
    Do you condone the continued breaking of the law? Oh, that's right. They are not citizens so they are not bound by our laws...I wonder what would happen tome if I didnt file my tax return. I would lose my job, have m bank accounts frozen, and probably serve Federal prison time. But it's OK for the illegals...right? And from your context you believe that is a plus!

    Much like the trade of illegal drugs keeps money moving, illegal migrant workers keep costs low. The government seems to understand that both have pros that outweigh cons and does little truly deal with them.
    It is reasonable to equate illegal drug trade to illegal aliens. Both problems need to be eradicated. In fact, if we get rid of one we will make a significandent in the other. Are you aware how many drugs come across the border by illegals. Perhaps you should ask Ramos and Compean.

    There is not a single positive having people break the laws on this nation. They should all be deported (or jailed if they have felony convictions.)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Alte View Post
    To answer your question: we would suffer by not having to stand in line in the Emergency Room, our children would suffer by not having overcrowded classrooms, our Social Programs would suffer by having enough money and facilities to serve the American people and we would all suffer by not having as many drunk drivers without licenses or insurance on our roads. I guess there would be a few bright spots - fewer drugs and drug dealers.


    Amen Alte. I agree 1000% with you. I have been the victim of a drunk driver who happened to be an illegal alien. No DL, no insurance. And a day later after the accident he caused (rear ended me) he was safe back home in Mexico. My insurance paid for my car and my rates went up. Thank God I wasn't injured.

    The very fact that they are here illegally is enough for me to say box them up and ship their sorry butts home. I wish there was a way to make sure they never came back.
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  4. #19
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    "...Much like the trade of illegal drugs keeps money moving, illegal migrant workers keep costs low. The government seems to understand that both have pros that outweigh cons and does little truly deal with them..."

    Wrong answer. Follow the money, whether from illegal drugs or illegal aliens. It doesn't benefit the common weal. So what if foodstuffs and construction costs go up. It'll be more than offset by decrease in the pressure on the handouts the government persists in offering, and the crime that illegals bring to a community. Not to mention the benefit derived from reducing additions to the future voting block that our liberal friends in politics have been creating. An additional liberal voting block that adds its voice to the rest who stridently make ever-increasing demands for the redistribution of wealth in our nation in exchange for their votes. Demands which liberals are only too happy to meet.

    The real answer is that we'll have just as much crime as we're willing to tolerate. It's obvious that we're willing to tolerate quite a lot.

    Thanks to the guys who posted the great and timely answers that refute the myth of the benefits of the illegal alien.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Alte View Post
    To answer your question: we would suffer by not having to stand in line in the Emergency Room, our children would suffer by not having overcrowded classrooms, our Social Programs would suffer by having enough money and facilities to serve the American people and we would all suffer by not having as many drunk drivers without licenses or insurance on our roads. I guess there would be a few bright spots - fewer drugs and drug dealers.
    You are spot on brother.....

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Mind you it would be good if you fixed your legal immigration system, last time I looked into it there was a 4 million person backlog.

    Also a better border fence would help.
    Like Canada's border security is so good, right? You don't have a major immigration problem because nobody wants to come there, not because of a good immigration system, or a border fence.

    There's a 4 million person backlog because we have too many foreign nationals living here now, and don't want any more. The fact that so many people want to come here doesn't mean there's a problem... quite the contrary. People want to come here because it is, in fact, the land of opportunity. Our form of government, and the freedoms we hold dear, have made this nation the envy of the world.

    Hey, I'm not exactly of American Indian ancestry myself. I couldn't care less what an American's ethnicity is, if a person obeys our laws, and is a productive member of our society, great! I'm quite tired of hearing that people who want a secure border are racist, or anti-immigrant, or anti-hispanic... I'm anti-criminal, and I'm not ashamed of it.

    Illegal aliens are by definition not law abiding members of our society. Our country has established laws that deal with immigration. If a citizen has a problem with those laws, fine... feel free to attempt to get those laws changed, just as you would with any other law you might disagree with. If you're not a citizen, you have no standing to attempt to influence our laws. Ignoring those laws is not an acceptable solution, any more that it would be to simply disobey any other law you might not agree with.

    How about we adopt exactly the same immigration laws as Mexico has? (no path to citizenship, must have mucho denero, cannot own property) I guess we could go with Canada's immigration policy instead (Must be a skilled worker, investor, or entrepreneur, and citizenship is quite difficult to achieve). My point is that all nations have immigration laws, and expect them to be obeyed. Why should we be held to a different standard?

    Arizona has exactly the right idea. If there are no jobs and no federal handouts available, most illegal aliens will leave. The few that stay will have a source of income not affected by laws... like say drug sales or theft. Those, we need to catch one at a time, and either lock them up, or send them home. Add to that a good fence to help keep those we kick out from turning around and coming back, and you've got a complete solution to our immigration problem.
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  7. #22
    Member Array Curtis27's Avatar
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    +1 cmidkiff!

    I think that the problem is that everyone feels that they have an entitlement to be here, and that is not really the case. Just because you want to come here does not mean you get to.

    Here in Texas, they estimate that the average Texan pays on the average of $700 per year in taxes to support the illegal immigrant problem. The problem is that when these illegal immigrants come to America, they are generally given cash in hand for work done, and therefore do not pay any taxes. Then they request welfare assistance to help them, unpaid medical assistance at the emergency room, and education for their children.

    The biggest problem that I can see is: Why are we not pressuring Mexico to take care of their impoverished? Seems that this is more a Mexican issue that they are unwilling to take care of their own, rather than America's problem in handling the illegal immigrant.

    When these people find that they can come here, get free wealfare assistance, free medical, and free education, and then start voting, they will just continue this mess that we find ourselves in...

    Our immigrantion policy was done so in a manner that we can bring in people to help make us a better society. A melting pot, instead of a salad bowl. A mixing of cultures, instead of each creating their own separate culture.

    A solution? Let's make the penalties and consequences extremely stiff for hiring illegal workers. You take the demand away, you take the supply away. Second, if you are here illegally, then you no longer get the free services. You must pay in advance for your children's education. You must pay in advance for medical services. We will certainly treat any life threatening injuries, but for non life threatening situations that you cannot pay for, it is time to go home to treat them. No longer will children born in the United States of illegal immigrant be allowed to be "Anchor Babies".

    I certainly do not mind taking a look at our immigrant policy to see if we could open the doors a little wider, but even if we don't change the policy, it is our policy. Just because you do not like it does not mean that you should break the law.

    Ok, I am stepping down from my soap box... Back to talking about defensive carry!
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  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    I'm guessing that we are going to have to "agree to disagree."
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Calling an Illegal alien an undocumented worker is like calling a drug dealer an undocumented pharmacist.

    and to the OP, for the original question...can we be winning? not until we stop arresting our border patrol agents for doing their job, not until we actually arrest employers of illegal immigrants for tax evasion, not until we arrest apartment owners who rent to illegals for harboring a fugitive, not until it becomes politically correct to actually stand up for our rights. So to answer your question...no, we aren't winning and we probably never will.
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  10. #25
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    IMMIGRATION: I don't know enough about LEGAL immigration to understand why one might way we have a broken system. I work in IT with a number of Indians here on work visas. When their visas get close to expiring, THEY GO TO MEXICO to renew it over a weekend! Apparently, it's much easier to do there.

    It seems our system works just fine for those who attempt to use it properly instead of breaking our laws.

    FENCE: On the concept of a fence, it really is a silly concept. No physical barrier keeps people out. Threats of punishment will only keep some out. There simply must be no desire to get here. If we remove the opportunity for jobs over here for illegals, they'll have little reason to attempt an illegal border crossing, thus little need for a fence.

    As a green-weenie conservative, I advise fence advocates to visit the desert southwest and live it a little bit before requesting a fence be built to disrupt such a beatiful area of our country.

    I won't even address the hipocrisy of the United States building a border fence after helping so many other countries tear theirs down.


    Regards,
    maximumrob

  11. #26
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximumrob View Post
    FENCE: On the concept of a fence, it really is a silly concept. No physical barrier keeps people out.
    A fence would be a significant barrier for virtually all the illegals. With the technological advances to provide additional security, we can pretty much end illegal imigration.

    Threats of punishment will only keep some out. There simply must be no desire to get here. If we remove the opportunity for jobs over here for illegals, they'll have little reason to attempt an illegal border crossing, thus little need for a fence.
    Indeed, we need a comprehensive plan! Just not the amnesty nonsense that rewards law breaking. We need to build the fence, fine employers that hire illegals, create tamper proof identification and DEPORT the illegals that are here. We keep hearing that we cannot 12 million illegals. Of course we can. One at a time. The sheer number of law breakers should not prevent us from enforcing the law.

    As a green-weenie conservative, I advise fence advocates to visit the desert southwest and live it a little bit before requesting a fence be built to disrupt such a beatiful area of our country.
    Walk a mile north and it is just as beautiful and you will have the peace of mind that we are defending our country.

    I won't even address the hipocrisy of the United States building a border fence after helping so many other countries tear theirs down.
    Surely you can discern the difference between a wall that keeps people in and one that keeps people out. Every sovereign nation has a right, no a duty, to protect its borders.

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by maximumrob View Post
    [FENCE: On the concept of a fence, it really is a silly concept. No physical barrier keeps people out.

    I won't even address the hipocrisy of the United States building a border fence after helping so many other countries tear theirs down.

    Regards,
    maximumrob
    Two points.
    First, a two tier wall/fence border would have a trmendous effect on controlling the influx of illegals. Have you ever seen the video footage of illegals streaming accross the border? My guess would be probably 95% of them just stroll across. Sure there are tunnels, but those are mainly for drugs. 3mill $ per mile would only be 6 Billion
    $'s for a wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. That would pay for itself in the first year many times over. It would not affect commerce either because you would have controlled access. But most importantly there would be much more control over who enters the country.
    Second, the border fences you speak of that we have helped tear down differ greatly from what ours would be in one huge aspect. Theirs were meant to keep people in.
    Ours would be to keep people out that do not have permission to come in.



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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    It's been suggested that offering U.S. statehood to any Mexican state that ratifies our Constitution would result in the MEXICAN government building a border fence with a speed that would cause heads to spin.....

  14. #29
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    It's been suggested that offering U.S. statehood to any Mexican state that ratifies our Constitution would result in the MEXICAN government building a border fence with a speed that would cause heads to spin.....
    That there proves that there is more than one way to skin a cat...
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    It's been suggested that offering U.S. statehood to any Mexican state that ratifies our Constitution would result in the MEXICAN government building a border fence with a speed that would cause heads to spin.....
    That concept borders on genius. (pun intended)
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