Philly Police Faulted For Shootings

This is a discussion on Philly Police Faulted For Shootings within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; It seems to me I remember that Philly is very anti-gun and CC. It also seems according to this article you have as much or ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: Philly Police Faulted For Shootings

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,206

    Philly Police Faulted For Shootings

    It seems to me I remember that Philly is very anti-gun and CC. It also seems according to this article you have as much or more to fear from the police shooting up neighborhoods and citizens than you do from bad guys. Now citizens should not be firing into the air to celebrate anything but the police shooting into a house full of people is even worse.

    Philly Police Faulted for Shootings
    Friday, January 4, 2008 5:30 AM


    http://www.newsmax.com/us/philadelph.../04/61685.html



    PHILADELPHIA -- For the second year in a row, city officials are being asked how police officers responding to celebratory New Year's Eve gunfire ended up shooting innocent bystanders.

    This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest.

    A year ago, police fatally shot a man in the back of the head as he tried to flee when neighbors started shooting guns into the air.

    The latest shootings came as Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson ends a six-year tenure marked by public concern about gun violence and the police response to it.

    Johnson has repeatedly been asked to answer questions about the department's use of deadly force, including two months ago when officers killed a distraught teenager wielding a clothes iron. City police fatally shot at least 16 people in 2007 and 20 the previous year.

    "It seems that there's too much of a policy to shoot first and worry about the outcome later," said Bruce Ginsburg, an attorney representing two of the shooting victims. "It puts everybody in the city in danger."

    Johnson, who retires Friday after 43 years with the department, defended his officers while promising an investigation of the New Year's Eve shootings.

    "It's hard for you to say when an officer has a gun pointed at him, is he reacting too fast? We had one (officer) killed, we had six others who were shot" this year, he said Thursday at his final news conference.

    Johnson's replacement, Charles Ramsey, has pledged to address the number of police shootings. Ramsey has noted that in his tenure as police chief of Washington, D.C., the number of such shootings fell by 77 percent.

    Philadelphia police acknowledged this week that they arrested an innocent partygoer early Tuesday, based on his resemblance to the suspect who they say fired shots in the air, pointed his weapon at police and ran toward the string of row homes. Authorities later charged a 21-year-old man, who was apparently shot in the arm but did not seek treatment.

    The party's host, Clinton Rogers, 30, told reporters that bullets started flying through the front door at him, friends and relatives just after midnight. Parents jumped in front of their children and two men who were shot ran upstairs, trailing blood.

    The spray of bullets left Abebe Isaac, 33, in a medically induced coma after he was shot in the face. Michael Johnson, 32, remains stable after being shot in the side. Nyger Page, 9, was treated and released after suffering the graze wound.

    Ginsburg represents Page's family and also that of Bryan Jones, who was shot to death by police as 2007 arrived.

    Jones, 20, had set out on foot in the waning moments of 2006 to retrieve a young nephew from a party and was fleeing gunfire when he was shot.

    Police have said officers responding to a report of gunfire were fired at by people on a porch and that an officer fired at Jones when he saw him reaching for his waistband. Jones, however, had no weapon and no criminal history, Ginsburg said.

    "Nothing was learned about the unnecessary death of a young man last year," he said.

    Ginsburg plans to file a wrongful death suit on behalf of Jones' family.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
    NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
    Utah Permit Certified Instructor

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,665
    Understand these people were not shot because they shot into the air... they were shot because they made poor choices in how to deal with the police.
    The police responded to a "shot fired" call. Man runs away, reaches into waistband... whatever. Stupid. Its basic cause and effect.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    People need to police themselves, then the police won't need to show up and potentially tase/shoot/arrest you.

    A house full of "parents" (!) and not one of them thought to say to th persons who discussed and then went to get their _guns_ to shoot in the air; 'Hey man that's a stupid idea. Don't do it as we got kids here'. Or think hey this situation is fubar, let me get me and my KIDS out of here before things go further sideways and someone gets hurt.

    In this case blaming the police is silly.
    That others got shot is sorrowful but all these people made their choice and rolled the dice.
    They came up snake eyes.

    - Janq doesn't shoot guns anywhere but at a range
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,206
    It looks to me like the police were chasing the armed reveler and shot through what appears to be a closed door into a room full of people. They were not shooting at someone aiming a gun at them at least that is not stated in this article. It doesn't even say the armed person belonged in that particular home or if he even entered the home, it simply says they were chasing him and shot into the house.


    "This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest."

    "The party's host, Clinton Rogers, 30, told reporters that bullets started flying through the front door at him, friends and relatives just after midnight. Parents jumped in front of their children and two men who were shot ran upstairs, trailing blood."
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
    NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
    Utah Permit Certified Instructor

  6. #5
    Ex Member Array ibez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    It looks to me like the police were chasing the armed reveler and shot through what appears to be a closed door into a room full of people. They were not shooting at someone aiming a gun at them at least that is not stated in this article. It doesn't even say the armed person belonged in that particular home or if he even entered the home, it simply says they were chasing him and shot into the house.


    "This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest."

    "The party's host, Clinton Rogers, 30, told reporters that bullets started flying through the front door at him, friends and relatives just after midnight. Parents jumped in front of their children and two men who were shot ran upstairs, trailing blood."
    I agree

    its more likely the police added the "man with gun" to their police report to "justify" their use of their weapons

  7. #6
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,665
    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    I agree

    its more likely the police added the "man with gun" to their police report to "justify" their use of their weapons

    .
    What did they get called there for in the first place?


    i read it as the shots were fired outside, the "victims" ran inside after the fact.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #7
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Is there a pattern here?


    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest.

    A year ago, police fatally shot a man in the back of the head as he tried to flee when neighbors started shooting guns into the air.

    Johnson has repeatedly been asked to answer questions about the department's use of deadly force, including two months ago when officers killed a distraught teenager wielding a clothes iron.
    I guess the police felt threatened by a clothes iron. Maybe they were ashamed of their wrinkled shirts.

    The party's host, Clinton Rogers, 30, told reporters that bullets started flying through the front door at him, friends and relatives just after midnight.

    The spray of bullets left Abebe Isaac, 33, in a medically induced coma after he was shot in the face. Michael Johnson, 32, remains stable after being shot in the side. Nyger Page, 9, was treated and released after suffering the graze wound.
    And the excuse was an innocent man supposedly reached into his waistband? What a crock! This is the dumbest excuse I have ever read for a quick on the trigger police officer.

    Is it credible to believe that police were so in fear that they fired on an unarmed man and were so poor in aim that they sprayed bullets and injured innocent people? Identify your target AND WHAT IS BEYOND The police failed in firearm basics and they make up nonsensical stories to justify their mistake.

    These people have the makings of a great lawsuit and the police involved should be suspended.

    Is it simply police on a power trip or that they never learned the basics of when to use deadly force? They should be held accountable.

  9. #8
    Member Array LVLabs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    47
    I don't know, this is a strange one but this is also a strange statement assuming it's true and the correct way it happened.

    Police have said officers responding to a report of gunfire were fired at by people on a porch and that an officer fired at Jones when he saw him reaching for his waistband. Jones, however, had no weapon and no criminal history, Ginsburg said.
    This is interesting, why would the LEO's allow themselves to be fired upon according to this article but only shoot back when one of them reached for his waist band? If they were taking fire the gun is alreay out and firing.


    Ti

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,949
    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Is there a pattern here?




    I guess the police felt threatened by a clothes iron. Maybe they were ashamed of their wrinkled shirts.



    And the excuse was an innocent man supposedly reached into his waistband? What a crock! This is the dumbest excuse I have ever read for a quick on the trigger police officer.

    Is it credible to believe that police were so in fear that they fired on an unarmed man and were so poor in aim that they sprayed bullets and injured innocent people? Identify your target AND WHAT IS BEYOND The police failed in firearm basics and they make up nonsensical stories to justify their mistake.

    These people have the makings of a great lawsuit and the police involved should be suspended.

    Is it simply police on a power trip or that they never learned the basics of when to use deadly force? They should be held accountable.
    I think the article could have been written better. They are talking about two seperate incidents a year apart. Jones (the unarmed man) was shot a year ago. The people in the house got shot up this week.
    As far as the girl with the iron goes, I don't know the exact circumstances but that could easily be a justified shooting depending on what information the officers had, the lighting, her behavior etc.

    As far as a possible law suit, it sure sounds like they have one. Possibly a criminal prosecution of the involved officers too. Several years back my old department had an officer convicted of manslaughter after shooting a girl armed with a bag of Doritos. There are stupid on both sides of the badge. Sometimes it takes a while to sort out who is who.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  11. #10
    New Member Array montego's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8
    I am from Philadelphia and I personally knew the victim of last years shooting, Jones, as we were neighbors. In his case he did nothing wrong. Shortly after New Years he went to a home to pick up his nephew. The houses are very close in Philly because they are row houses. Revelers were shooting into the air nearby the house he was going to. In a seconds notice police arrived on the seen and began shooting. He was shot in the back of the head as he ran for safety. Previous comments about the police being dishonest in some situations are correct because the police stuck to the story that he was armed and reaching for a gun for as long as they could until the fact that he was not only unarmed, but shot while running for safety were released. Several rules of engagement were broken, I believe the Philadelphia Police are never suppose to shoot at someone who is fleeing, which is evident by the location of the wound. Law suits have been filed.

  12. #11
    Member Array Mr_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    49
    Just another incident of poor police work. Shooting into houses without knowing who is inside is very dangerous. Shooting an unarmed man reaching for his waist band (if he in fact did) is questionable.

    But it is doubtful the truth will ever come out.

    Mr_D

  13. #12
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,665
    Well, this thread has become completely moronic rather quickly. I am disgusted by the lack of thought put into most of the posts here. Grow up guys, and think farther than the nose on your face.

    I guess assuming that most police lie, I'll continue to assume that my posters make their own assumptions based on watching T.V. and have no clue of the about the matters in which they post about.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #13
    Member Array Mr_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I guess assuming that most police lie, I'll continue to assume that my posters make their own assumptions based on watching T.V. and have no clue of the about the matters in which they post about.
    You assume wrong.
    I should not have used the term "most", a better term would have been a "high percentage". For that I apologize.
    Did not mean to offend any LE as I know this is a very sensitive area and this is not the thread to discuss the crminal element in many departments. Besides, it would never be allowed on this board and would only end up with "insults", "us/them" etc etc.

    Mr_D

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    693
    Mr D,

    It's sad to see that you have such a poor opinion of our Nations LEOs. Your choice of words "most" or "high percentage" seem to say it all. It comes as no surprise though.

    All of the cop shows have at least one or two wrong cops in the ranks. They are shown lying, stealing and killing with at least the tacit approval of their superiors. The IA arrives and are depicted as the bad guys that are despised by all of the officers bad or not. This is accepted as "the way it is" by most or should I say a high percentage of viewers. Remember that these shows are produced by the Hollywood crew who, last time I checked, deal with fantasy rather than reality. Fantasy sells and makes ratings. Reality doesn't.

    Moving next to the popular news media. They suffer from the same ills that Hollywood does. Dirt sells. It's easier to sell papers that are loaded with lurid dressed up detail. How many times has media bias been exposed. Dan Rather, Miami assault weapons piece etc. The papers in Philly routinely use the word "alleged" when describing the actions of the suspect but use phrases like "gunned the suspect down" or "shot the suspect dead" when speaking of the actions of the police. So much for due process for all involved. The facts are not as important as how the piece reads. How many times have you read the line "semi-automatic service revolver"?

    What doesn't make the news are the good things that happen every day. The list of these things is far longer than the "bad" one. You will never know about them unless you are a cop or the person who was the other half of the interaction that made the good list. We (cops) need the word to get out from those who know. Hollywood and the media sure aren't going to tell the story.

    I have been on the job for nearly 15 yrs. Neither I nor any other officer on my job has ever perjured themselves, stolen, assaulted etc.. We have found lost children, provided first aid, given directions, changed tires, made things that go bump in the night seem less scary, mediated disputes, waved hi, taught DARE, attended our high school's graduation, issued as many written warnings as we have citations, made people happy, made people angry, made people feel safe, made people that love us worry and yes, when called upon we have used force and hurt people. We do a job that usually means that 1/2 of the people that we deal with will not be satisfied with the outcome. Why, when people form their opinions of police do they only listen to the 1/2 that is not happy with us?

    Sorry, rant over. To all on the job, Be safe! To all those who are not, please seek the truth about you local LEO.
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  16. #15
    Member Array Mr_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Knuckledrager View Post
    Mr D,

    It's sad to see that you have such a poor opinion of our Nations LEOs. Your choice of words "most" or "high percentage" seem to say it all. It comes as no surprise though.
    Not sure what the term "it comes as no suprise" is supposed to mean. You do not know me or anything about me. I simply made a statement that IMO can be backed with fact.
    Just one example:
    * Arrests of New York's Finest rose 25 percent in 2006 over the previous year, from 91 to 114.
    * The number of policeman caught using drugs last year jumped 138 percent, from eight incidents the previous year to 19,.* Fraud allegations involving insurance, credit card and welfare swindles rose 85 percent to 50 complaints from 27 the previous year.
    * The number of policeman stripped of their guns and badges and placed on modified duty jumped 55 percent, from 137 to 212, but suspensions fell 11 percent from 159 to 142.

    Again, the above is one example of one department. I did apologize for the wrong use of words (most). For me this is a high percentage but certainly is not "most". It has nothing to do with the good LEO in the country. It has nothing to do with a formulated opinion in your mind "you have such a poor opinion of our Nations LEOs" that you think I arrived at concerning all LEO in this country. I gave no opinion concerning LE as a whole but rather an observation of a problem as I see it among LE. There simply is a growing problem that needs to be addressed for the sake of the entire LE community.


    Now, I have no intention of continuing this as it will get us no where.
    To the moderators...don't close the thread...I will not respond to any further post on this thread...rest easy.

    Mr_D

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. New order for Philly police on OC
    By swinokur in forum Open Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: October 26th, 2010, 05:57 PM
  2. Scottsdale police officer party to 6 shootings
    By AZUSMC22 in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: March 8th, 2010, 08:25 PM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 18th, 2009, 11:35 AM
  4. Good: 2 Police involved shootings in one day
    By PaulJ in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: February 6th, 2009, 02:27 PM
  5. Philly Police Faulted For Shootings
    By havegunjoe in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 4th, 2008, 03:29 PM