In uniform off duty(rant) - Page 4

In uniform off duty(rant)

This is a discussion on In uniform off duty(rant) within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; While it certainly looks odd to those of us who have been in a while, you have to understand that policies change. Soldiers are encouraged ...

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Thread: In uniform off duty(rant)

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    While it certainly looks odd to those of us who have been in a while, you have to understand that policies change.

    Soldiers are encouraged and in some cases required by their command to wear duty uniform in situations that used to be completely taboo. When traveling CONUS on orders, I am in ACUs. The intent is to increase recruiting.

    It is true that it poses a greater security risk, but the powers that be have determined that the potential benefits are worth the potential risk.

    As for carrying; don't ask don't tell. It's only a violation to knowingly disobey an order.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

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  2. #47
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    I agree, DW - the time's they are a-changin'. As I've said, my primary concern is violting policy, and FORCEPRO is secondary. If the command has decided that being in a duty uniform will help recruitment, so be it - but they obviously haven't been paying attention to how most troops wear their pizza hats, er, I mean, berets... (God, don't get me started...)

    However, I'd be very careful of DODT in this case - ignorance of the law is very, very rarely an excuse. So be careful, in every sense of the word.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array Paladin132's Avatar
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    I have to agree. I have talked to friends of mine at Hood, and there it is still against policy. We are getting in a "tizzy" because its lack of dicipline and that is usually shown by people acting like fools out in the civilian world while in our country's uniform. That drives me nuts, and the fact is that its often people just trying to look cool. The uniform is not, to me, something to look cool. Its a responsability and an honor to wear.

  4. #49
    Member Array 05warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    if you have to throw regs around (which is usually a sign of a weak leader imo), maybe you missed that DA ammended 670-1 to what i just stated in Feb 05.

    i also see no reason not to ccw while in uniform. i have not seen anything indicating it's against policy/reg/law to ccw while in uniform (off post). i do frequently.
    I'm not sure about were you're stationed, but everywhere I've been, wearing the Duty Uniform (ACU/BDU) is a no go. It is a work uniform, I'm not sure what you do, but some of us get our Duty Uniform amazingly dirty throughout the day while training. If they allowed everyone to wear our dirty and dingy uniforms out and about the general public would lose the view that we are professionals. What's the best way to stop that?? Don't allow anyone to wear them out, just like anything in the military one person does it and they can assume others will therefore they have to make a policy for everyone. I'm not even going to touch the security issues as they have been beaten to death.

    How is being able to reference Regs a sign of a weak leader??

    As far as carry on post goes, you might want to research what your post policies are, or just ask an MP. If you get caught, ignorance is no excuse.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    How about this....chances are the chain of command IS NOT aware of what is going on. It isn't a sign of poor leadership as much as it is a sign of poor discipline and followership of the individual servicemember.

    So...in addition to venting about it....DO something about it....notify the chain of command. If you don't have a specific unit, notify the Public Affairs office and make your views known (if you call the PM office, they probably won't care). This will result in the CG pushing a message to his command staff and (hopefully) flow down from there.

    Bottomline: the leadership can't do anything about it if they don't know about it.

    +1 phaed--I think you're getting too worked up about this
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  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, she could shop for 5 hours in this uniform? I thought you said you couldn't carry anything in it?
    She told me she could not carry anything while in her Class A uniform not her Class B that she was wearing home.

    One quick rant about "North Worst Airlines" they lost her bag and I ended up buying her some "Civies" to wear until they finally found her bag... Two Days later!!

    I requested (when her bag finally showed) that she wear her Class A for Christmas eve service and Church service the following Sunday (Dad wanted to show off his kid), that is when she informed me of the no carry anything rule (we were going to the Mall after and she wanted to shop but had to change first.) There were quite a number of people that upon seeing her in uniform came over to just say thanks...

    Which she commented on that this was nice WRT the rude people at one place in the Fort Rucker area, happened to a friend of hers that was within visual at the time, real smart donkey rear laughing and making jokes about the uniform, and then doing something real stupid, swinging his open hand at their head and laughing when they ducked commenting on how they are trained to do that.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  7. #52
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin132 View Post
    I have to agree. I have talked to friends of mine at Hood, and there it is still against policy. We are getting in a "tizzy" because its lack of dicipline and that is usually shown by people acting like fools out in the civilian world while in our country's uniform. That drives me nuts, and the fact is that its often people just trying to look cool. The uniform is not, to me, something to look cool. Its a responsability and an honor to wear.
    now that i can agree with. if soldiers are showin their ass, it's very wrong. but, that's quite another thing than just wearing the uniform itself.

    as for the folks praising regs...they have their place. but, also realize that if you read and followed every one of them, you can bring yourself, your unit, and your mission to a screeching halt. our Army is a huge bureaucracy. you can find several regs on just about everything...many of them contradictory. you can find one to support your doing or not doing just about anything, depending on your bias. what you say as a leader should make sense, and be able to stand on its own merit. it weakens your authority if you have to lean on a piece of paper. policies are guidelines, and not meant to replace common sense.

    and for the couple that want to get on your high-horses about it, you need to understand that you should be in jail for having oral sex. check your UCMJ.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    and for the couple that want to get on your high-horses about it, you need to understand that you should be in jail for having oral sex. check your UCMJ.
    If I'm doing it in public, in a uniform proscribed by the CG, then I probably should be in jail... The difference here - as if it isn't obvious - is that one is PUBLIC and one is PRIVATE; one can make me a target for a terrorist, and one can make me a target for a jealous significant other... Of course there are regs that are BS - but we enforce them if we have the fact that they are being broken thrown in our face, we simply don't go out looking to enforce them.

    And, as Patton said, "If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?"

    Also, thanks for the leadership lesson... Makes me wonder why I wasted all that time in PLDC/BNCOC/OCS/IOBC/IOAC...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    As a non .mil sort ( my time was LE with only brief and occasional interaction with the whole .mil world .

    I am not offended by seeing folks in uniform , nor unless they are ******* in the aquarium am i offended seeing them in a bar . In fact ill buy them a drink and encourage the aquarium stunt ( hey we all need to be famous lol ) . If its against orders i figure that since it harms no one its up to the chain of command to correct . I honestly get more upset at a group of off duty or plainclothes police officers setting at " Dennys " soaking up the free coffee offered to them , with guns proudly on display and the badge on the belt right beside it . Now that area of ethics/ uniform standards i have enough experience with to comment on lol . If your an officer and doing this then STOP If you hide the gun and badge you can easily impersonate a rather unsuccessfull magizine or insurance salesman , and while no one loves such folk , and many want to shoot one , you wont be the pick of the litter when it comes to tactical shoot the customer time , they will then go for the big redneck construction worker who looks mad instead of the guy with the gun .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  10. #55
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    per se, that's not something that will be taught in any formal school. it is something i've learned from excellent leaders during my time. however, in general, moral and ethical dilemmas are discussed, even in early schools. they are discussed at length in CGSC. "just following orders/regs" is an extrapolation on that subject.

    The difference here - as if it isn't obvious - is that one is PUBLIC and one is PRIVATE
    i see, now you've changed your tactic (to a much less supportable one, i might add). breaking regs is ok, as long as no one else knows about you breaking the regs. quite a different approach than your blind adherence quoted from before...

    AND it's almost always against post policy...
    Because it is often against policy
    would have had a long talk with your Corporal's chain of command, assuming your Corporal was in violation of published uniform policy.
    because I choose to abide by the lawful orders of my superiors
    Um, upholding written policy isn't 'throwing regs around,' it's following orders
    to demonstrate my point, i could now throw another piece of writing at you and say this, "then there's that tag around your neck...Integrity - always doing the right thing, even when no one's around."

    or perhaps i could show you that that wearing your fatigue bottoms to the range is in violation of 670-1, and label you a hypocrite.

    but, i'm not. instead, i'm going to tell you that even though you and i very often have different opinions, that you are still my brother. and, that my main point here is that perhaps you shouldn't worry about what everyone else is doing...stick to your lane, if you will. just because the 3 stations you listed had those policies when you were there doesn't mean they still have them, or that all other posts have similar regs. i can tell you that some do not, and that at least one of the stations you listed (benning) changed their policy to reflect what i stated earlier, even for their students.

    i will also tell you that soldiers frequenting a certain place creates a Force Protection issue, just like you said. But, not all soldiers do that. Just go easy on the generalizations.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Probably not a great idea to get drunk in uniform; but, I have no problem with any uniform in public. These individuals are willing to give their life to this country and I support them.
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  12. #57
    Member Array monky's Avatar
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    From personal experience, and I see it all the time in my line of work..

    The soldiers I see in uniform 'off base' do so for simply one reason.. They get free drinks at a bar from some patriotic american/vet, free lap dances from strippers (best perk imo), congratulations and job well dones.

    I have several friends who are on their 3rd tour in Iraq.. everytime they come home, no one pays for a drink. I have seen all three of them break down and cry (grown men mind you) as soon as we were all alone. The first time they came home and had leave (restrictions on distance and driving) I picked them up and we went and got a TALL frosty one.. or 5.. or.. however many it was. Needless to say.. I purchased the first round no others were paid for by us.

    I'm not saying they're freeloaders or anything like that.. but what they're doing the majority of us have not done. Why not enjoy the benefits.. hell if I got drinks bought for me simply for doing a job I signed up for.. I'd take advantage of it, especially after a tour.

    I live by a base, and I don't see that many military people out unless they are in civies.. it is an AF base though.. go down to Ft. Carson and it's a diff story.. but it's a larger base.. more people in/out of it as far as active personel. I don't fault them for it..

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array Paladin132's Avatar
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    I think the main issue is that soldiers tend to do stupid things (I feel that I can say that, having worn stripes a few moons ago) and doing it in uniform happens which then causes bad images on the civliains we are supposed to protect, therefore it was always discouraged while I was in by making it a hastle (wear class a's).

    I agree with the policy personally because in half a decade of mlitary service I was never unable to do what I needed to do to make the world go 'round because of the policy, but I know friends that were kept from looking like asses in front of the world just because they did something young and dumb in a uniform.

    I guess I can't explain it better than that, other than I have had issues in my hometown where I have stopped a servicemember and corrected them on behavior or wear and appearance of the uniform because they were not in compliance with regulations. The world is gray, roger, got it, but if your uniform is unservicable or being worn inproperly then you need to get corrected. If you are doing something in it that you shouldn't the same applies.

    Not to mention the occasional anti war zealout that has harrassed servicemembers because of our involvement overseas. It isn't widespread, but I have experienced it a few times myself just while wearing a hat that says Army on it, or the idiot that wants to whip up on someone and thinks its a good idea to pick on a soldier...

    And last comment (boy it wasn't supposed to drag on this long, sorry folks) - you can't carry in uniform! :)

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    per se, that's not something that will be taught in any formal school. it is something i've learned from excellent leaders during my time. however, in general, moral and ethical dilemmas are discussed, even in early schools. they are discussed at length in CGSC. "just following orders/regs" is an extrapolation on that subject.
    Again, thanks for the lesson.
    i see, now you've changed your tactic (to a much less supportable one, i might add). breaking regs is ok, as long as no one else knows about you breaking the regs. quite a different approach than your blind adherence quoted from before...
    False. My assertion is not that one is right and one is wrong, my assertion was about seeing a wrong and correcting it. A public violation that I witness is, by definition, visible to others (i.e., me), while a private one is not. It is (hopefully) a lot more common to see a soldier wearing a uniform in public against policy than it is to see a soldier performing a proscribed sex act, is it not? And again, what you do behind closed doors is much less likely to be a FORCEPRO concern, policies and regs not withstanding.
    to demonstrate my point, i could now throw another piece of writing at you and say this, "then there's that tag around your neck...Integrity - always doing the right thing, even when no one's around."
    See above.
    or perhaps i could show you that that wearing your fatigue bottoms to the range is in violation of 670-1, and label you a hypocrite.
    That's strongly debatable, considering my current status, nevermind the fact that BDUs are worn by at least some of almost every police department in the country...and you can buy BDU pants at any police or hunting supply store in the country...and they aren't even the current uniform...
    but, i'm not. instead, i'm going to tell you that even though you and i very often have different opinions, that you are still my brother. and, that my main point here is that perhaps you shouldn't worry about what everyone else is doing...stick to your lane, if you will. just because the 3 stations you listed had those policies when you were there doesn't mean they still have them, or that all other posts have similar regs. i can tell you that some do not, and that at least one of the stations you listed (benning) changed their policy to reflect what i stated earlier, even for their students.
    I do stick to my lane - enforcing policy when you come across violations is/was well within my charge. That being said, I have never approached a soldier that didn't 'belong' to me just for wearing a uniform in public, because of what you've stated - policy is different in different units/posts. I will step in if a uniform is badly out of specs, being worn improperly, or is being worn by someone acting the fool. We are on the same team, of course - I simply don't see what's to be gained for our team by wearing BDUs to Wal-Mart with your crying kids and mustard-stained collar, or by getting blotto in the local saloon and puking on your boots, or by getting blown up at the disco...

    All that aside - I recognize that the times are a-changin', and that uniform policies are changing along with them. I also recognize that there are plenty of soldiers who can wear the uniform in public and portray a positive image. I also, also recognize, however, that if you're just out cruising for free drinks, you should put on your Bs and suck it up - you can't really go wrong that way.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin132 View Post
    I think the main issue is that soldiers tend to do stupid things (I feel that I can say that, having worn stripes a few moons ago) and doing it in uniform happens which then causes bad images on the civliains we are supposed to protect, therefore it was always discouraged while I was in by making it a hastle (wear class a's).
    That I can agree to... That we are all human and at sometime will act as such. For a great many years I wore (retired) the uniform of a Fire Marshall and as such had to act as a professional 100% of the time when in dress. If I were going out for lunch where they served booze, while every one else was having a beer I opted for the Ice Tea, there is no shame in that.
    There is a time a place for almost everything, and when in uniform... any uniform you must act accordingly.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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