September 9th, 2005 12:34 PM
Guns and ammo for survival: how much, what kind, how many?
I have been thinking about this for some time. It's a small niche in the BOB (Bug-Out-Bag) concept, but an important one - how many and what guns and what ammo will/can we take?
The reality is, food, clothes, people take up a lot of room in a car, even in PUs, especially to live out of for two or more weeks on a self sufficient basis. So, there is not going to be unrestricted space for guns and ammo.
As far as ammo goes, there seem to be four aspects that need to be considered: quantity, weight, space/storage requirements, and type.
From the start, this is not a ďmy caliber is better than your caliber becauseÖĒ thing. Itís just some real things to think about. It's really hard to predict how much ammo one would need for an unspecified period of time, but my comfort level is about 500 rounds. Ammo is heavy; lots of ammo is really heavy. I just weighed a box of Walmart/Winchester 100 rd. box of 115 gn. 9mm; one box weighed 2.67 pounds, 5 boxes (500 rounds) would weigh 13Ė1/3 pounds - that's not light. 230 gn, .45 ACP would weigh over twice as much - 26.6 pounds! Is weight a problem? In a car it may not be, but if you have to walk a considerable distance and carry your ammo it can be a real problem. Where would we even carry it! Cargo pockets won't work and that almost means a back pack. And carrying 13-3 up to 26.6 pounds of ammo alone would undo most of us. 9mms will store in about half the space of .45 ACP.
Addressing the ammo type, we all talk about the HP (hollow point), high performance ammo, but do we actually have 500 rounds of 124 gn +P Gold Dots on hand at any given time? I don't! But I do have about 1000 rounds of WWB and realistically that's probably what Iíll have to settle for. I suppose I could procure HPs for bug-out purposes but that means I have to keep the supply fresh and current which may require shooting it as it gets older and replacing it with newer Ė itís just too expensive.
As far as guns go, among my many favorites, I have a Beretta 92G by Langdon Tactical Technologies (no longer in existence as far as I know) and a Beretta 9mm Storm. Both guns shoot the same ammo and use the same mags. That seems like it would be a definite advantage in a survival situation where space and transportation is critical. I have three 15 round mags, two 17 round mags, and two 20 round mags that fit either gun. The handgun is for what handguns are for - a constant companion, and the carbine is for longer shots, higher capacity, a little more fire power, etc. I know a 9mm carbine is not a .223 AR, but then the AR implies more mags and more ammo and in all likelihood, a 9mm carbine will suffice since we aren't talking about an all out war/battle.
So the issues are:
How much ammo can you realistically carry/take with you?
What kind of ammo?
September 9th, 2005 12:57 PM
If my family and me ever have to get out of town, it will probably be to my parentís place, out in the country. My dad, my brother and I have had discussions over the years about how it would be a good idea to standardize calibers across the three families, since we may all end up ďworking together for the common defenseĒ. We havenít done a real good job, of standardizing because we all have our preferences. We do all have the following calibers in common, however:
So if space is limited, the guns and ammo I take with will be in those calibers. Not my absolute favorites, but we can do pretty good with those.
Of course, I donít see leaving my Remington 700 in 308 behind. That one odd ball has to come along.
Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1
Si vis pacem, para bellum
September 9th, 2005 02:54 PM
Tangle, I'm not sure you have this thread in the right catagory, But, having said that......
I've asked before, if you are bugging out, how much ammo do you really need? I would hope that I'm never in a situation that would force me to have to go through the amount of ammo in a couple week period that people keep saying they need.
I wish we could find out how many rounds were fired in some of these NOLA "fire fights".
EOD - Initial success or total failure
September 9th, 2005 03:17 PM
I read "someplace" that the average shopowner (armed) during the LA riots expended 500 rounds. Obviously, you have no way of knowing if this was 2 people, or 20, that were interviewed, or how many shots were "warnings", or "spray-n-pray".
In a confined, urban, environment, where a show of force could be as effective as a kill, that number would not surprise me, particularly if you held a stationary position against roving looters. This is why I'm a fan of the assault vest/BOB combo- things are still heavy, but more easily carried, closer to your midline.
Tying this to the thread about "Officials" confiscating PDWs in NO. Learn how gas mains, gas stations, transformer stations, etc., work. Pick up a couple of basic chemistry books, and maybe a couple of bacteriological culture preparation/maintenance text books. If someone wants my "weapons", they're welcome to them all. Some can be downright toxic......
September 9th, 2005 03:24 PM
Well, I wasn't sure either, so I checked to see what category P95Carry put the similar thread, "What to regard as needed - and hoped I could hide behind his lead and example.
Originally Posted by rstickle
September 9th, 2005 03:54 PM
I think that using NO as a template, the idea of a BUGOUT means that you're probably NOT going to be able to come back to a pristine unlooted home, let alone undamaged by other forces. Therefore a Bugout would by necessity mean taking everything. Also, I worry about security in transit to the next location. My relatives trying to exfiltrate other family members last week ran into potential BGs at various rest stops in the disaster zone. That's got to be a factor.
Originally Posted by rstickle
I have always tried to keep my weapons, magazines and calibers close to being standardized. I like NATO standard, that way it's going to be easy to resupply in a pinch by a wide variety of means. However, I like my 45's more than my 9mms but I'll still take 'em both. In a pinch, I'd leave behind my 22 and one of the 12 ga shotties. But the 45's, the 308s and the 223 have to come along. So does my GARAND for it's extreme ammo capability ie A.P. or APIT.
I'm in the process of deciding to trade my sole remaining 223 for a M1A variant to what I've already got. That way, I could use mags for both and ammo would be easier. A SOCOM 16 for CQB and the tuned M1A for long range apps.
I'll eventually get a CAR15 by inheritance and I've still got tons of M16 mags, so I could get back into that game.
Right now, we're in a holding pattern to either retire or my wife retire and then move to safer locale while I put in remainder of time. Wife wants to move to a semirural setting and build earth sheltered for long term security. With careful selection, that move could be the final stand, with no bugout needed. Indeed we'd probably become the rally point for the rest of the family in an emergency.
Right now, I seem to have my ammo in GI "cans" and each is loaded with a variety of shells in case I have a variety of weapons available. IOW, I have no "pure" 223 boxes. No "pure" 308 cans, etc. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. However everything is marked clearly.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
September 9th, 2005 04:18 PM
$64,000 question Ron!!
I would by default have Mr SIG, and associated mags and quite a bunch of 9mm - I have an ammo box with approx 1,000 124 +P Gold Dots. I would ensure that Mrs P95 has also her suitable tooling and that would be at least her snub and she could carry a good 200 rounds of 38 or better.
For long arms, I guess primary pick could well be the ubiqitous AK and a sizeable pack of Wolf. From choice I'd like the FAL along but ammo for that is real heavy. I'd probably include the CX-4 because with my 9mm ammo stash wife could make good use of it.... and it is not too heavy or awkward.
I'd also tho wish to include at least one .22, and a box or two of ammo. If larger cals get run down then a bunch of .22 is way better than nothing, plus that ammo could well be ''found'' in many places.
I must give further thought to selections - one thing I do know - I can't carry my safe on my back
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
September 9th, 2005 05:24 PM
My BOB is really light and small and civilian looking on purpose. I'm building a second more robust BOB very slowly.
Originally Posted by Tangle
You are quite correct in that the gun is a part of it but not the main focus of it. Personally, I chose my P89. I figured out I don't like to carry this gun, and I feel better armed with something slightly above 9x19, but 9x19 is my personal minimum.
I have my P89, 251 cartridges of cheap hollowpoint ammunition, 3 Mec Gar brand 17 round capacity magazines, a very slender Bianchi holster, and a Hoppe's cleaning kit as my designated primary bugout gun.
Why this and not a rifle or shotgun? Because I'm far more likely to need to be discrete than to be effective. Now don't get me wrong I keep my rifle right next to it ready to go. But the P89 was selected as it uses a ridiculously common cartridge, it thrives on neglect, it's not so pricey I'm afraid to lose it, it's never failed on me even once, and it's as tough as they come.
That's why I'm still searching for a .308 platform I can use for a bugout rifle. I think something very simple chambered in .308 or .30-06 would be idea. These are two calibers sold in any place that sells ammunition after all.
Right now I figure my 1894 would be my bugout as it's my truck rifle at the moment. It too uses a very common catridge and one that many other people are not likely to go out and stock up on if they're expecting trouble. It's simple and rugged and easily maintained. I'd like something a little more effective but for two legged threats and anything four legged in these parts the .44 Magnum would be quite sufficient at typical urban ranges.
September 9th, 2005 05:31 PM
Well, one lesson learned is to keep some cheap ones to give up when the thugs come breaking down your doors...
Figure they will be by at least twice, so three caches with a Mosin carbine, a Yugo SKS, and a Star BM in each one, with 100 rounds of 9mm, 200 rounds of 7.62x39,(Chinese bra with stripper clips), and 60 rounds of 7.62x54R surplus steel core in supplied belt pouches. Total cost for each cache roughly $450, using AZ figures. Place in difficult to get to locations, nearby enough to get to, but bad for lazy, tired jack booted thugs, who will just take the old Turk Mauser and Nagant revolver from the front room.....plus any jewelry and money left in plain sight.
Edited to add I wish I had the $ to do this myself, but i don't own any land or have $ to buy even one Star Bm....just an idea.
If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?
September 10th, 2005 12:26 AM
Just remember to "de-mill" any sacrificial weapons you leave for the Police thugs. Something hard to detect until someone attempts to fire it. Right now all my non-defense guns have the firing pins removed. But if you were more malicious you could obstruct the barrel, muck with the headspacing, jam the firing pin so it would slam-fire or fire out of battery, etc. I say this because I know a lot of those confiscated guns will end up in some cop's personal collection or be used as a throw down piece.
But back to ammo / guns, I have a pistol for myself, my wife and my son. Would they use them? Who knows, but better to have it, just in case they might. I would bring the AR and a lot of ammo (doesn't weigh much), my .22 (sentimental value and useful) and a block of ammo, and the M1 Garand over the SKS, despite the weight (can you say AP boys and girls?) with all the loaded clips I have.
Looking at this list, I see I need a shotgun...
September 10th, 2005 06:49 AM
Depends how im leaving But for sure i would go with 45 for me with 300 or so round more likely 500 then 9mm with 500 or so then the ar15 and the cetme 308 qall nato std except the 45 ..
Then i would toss in the odd one a 38 and rounds for it not the most powerfull for sure but i would say real easy to get ammo for too..
Plus you could use 38 for hunting close range with out burning up your supply of 9mm and 45 or rifle ammo Pretty easy to hit a rabbit with a 38 and a deer also just all about shot placement
September 11th, 2005 11:31 AM
All else aside, I would take a Sig or H&K 9mm (I'd probably die trying to decide which one), my Scattergun Technology 870, and my AR-10 (.308) and plenty of ammo and mags for all.
But, all this requires space; space that may be needed by many other things as well - just so much will fit the given space and food, water, gas, clothes, first aid, and people may take up most of the room. That's what lead me to think about the Beretta 92G and Storm to minimize space requirements and "tote-ability", and to minimize ammo, magazines, and cleaning supplies, etc.
I was thinking that we might get "out", but we may have to leave our car in a traffic jam, out of gas, broken down, etc. and a pistol and a light, compact carbine that uses the same mags, cleaning supplies, and ammo would help a lot I would think.
I don't know if the above is a worst case scenario or what is likely to happen.
September 11th, 2005 08:36 PM
I've got so much to take, I could never pack it all. I'd have to see the situation coming and pre-position to allow for an escape which is highly unlikely considering my location.....OR I can do what we have in fact prepared to do which is hunker down and ride it out in our own little BUNKER. Eventually, (hopefully sooner rather than later) we plan to leave this area of the country and move. Then we'll build our little Hobbit Home and really BUNKER in. But we're NOT bugging out. Never EVER become a refugee. Those folks who evacuated...yes they're Americans and all of that, but being on the move--their destiny removed from their control...they are in fact REFUGEES.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
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