Agent breaks #1 rule. - Page 2

Agent breaks #1 rule.

This is a discussion on Agent breaks #1 rule. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I tell you, I am sick to death of "blame the equipment" arguments. This is the same exact argument used to take your guns away ...

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  1. #16
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    I tell you, I am sick to death of "blame the equipment" arguments. This is the same exact argument used to take your guns away - the guns themselves are at fault, so we should ban DAO pistols because they don't have (in many cases) external safeties. Then, we should ban SA autos because they have a "hair trigger." Then we can ban revolvers because they both have no safeties AND have "hair triggers." Of course, the only thing that makes any of these weapons fire is pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber - but let's not pay any attention to that - it's obviously the inanimate object's fault.

    Seriously, folks, check yourselves. Just because it wasn't your "pet" gun involved this time doesn't mean that it won't be next time (or wasn't last time). Screaming about the "unsafe" guns is a sure way to get rid of all guns...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    I wonder how many fed agents shot themselves in the foot before the glock was invented?? I'll agree that lack of training plays the main role in these things but still...
    "Any rationally thinking person is armed" ---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis

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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I tell you, I am sick to death of "blame the equipment" arguments. This is the same exact argument used to take your guns away - the guns themselves are at fault, so we should ban DAO pistols because they don't have (in many cases) external safeties. Then, we should ban SA autos because they have a "hair trigger." Then we can ban revolvers because they both have no safeties AND have "hair triggers." Of course, the only thing that makes any of these weapons fire is pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber - but let's not pay any attention to that - it's obviously the inanimate object's fault.

    Seriously, folks, check yourselves. Just because it wasn't your "pet" gun involved this time doesn't mean that it won't be next time (or wasn't last time). Screaming about the "unsafe" guns is a sure way to get rid of all guns...
    Calm down Opfor, nobodys talking about banning anything here.
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    You guy's crack me up!!
    Guns go bang when you pull the trigger(period).
    This idiot hit the trigger!
    Cocked and unlocked!
    Bad Glock!!
    JK OPFOR
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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  5. #20
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    Here's the thing - BP Agents (and correct me if this has changed) use the Beretta DAO pistol. These have a loooong DA trigger pull, and will NOT go off by themselves any more than a revolver will.

    That being said, the OP stated that this was a personally owned weapon, which could have been of any type. To state that it was the "unsafe" _insert brand you don't like here_ pistol's fault is silly at best, dangerous at worst.

    And FastCloud - we aren't talking about banning anything, but plenty of others are. If members of the gun community think that a weapon is too unsafe for use, what do you think the antis will say? Will we get more key locks on our pistols? Maybe locking holsters like the ones that have worked so well for the TSA? All sorts of other "safety" features that will at best drive up the cost of firearms? Can you not see the dangers of this argument.

    And, on another point - the Glock is BY FAR the most common handgun in police use (and, by extention, in common use). It would stand to reason that there would be more NDs with Glocks based just on sheer numbers, even if it were the "safest" pistol in history.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadeye72 View Post
    My HK acted up like that one time. I unloaded it, put it in time out, and have not had any problems out of it since. You have to dicipline your guns or they will just run wild.
    Those damn guns. Always speaking out of turn

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    That being said, the OP stated that this was a personally owned weapon, which could have been of any type. To state that it was the "unsafe" _insert brand you don't like here_ pistol's fault is silly at best, dangerous at worst.

    And FastCloud - we aren't talking about banning anything, but plenty of others are. If members of the gun community think that a weapon is too unsafe for use, what do you think the antis will say? Will we get more key locks on our pistols? Maybe locking holsters like the ones that have worked so well for the TSA? All sorts of other "safety" features that will at best drive up the cost of firearms? Can you not see the dangers of this argument.
    It's not an argument. It's only a personal opinion on a public forum. I hope I'm still entitled to one. Here's another...I don't think that DAO auto pistols are "too" unsafe for use...just a little less safe than others. They can cry about banning them (and if Obama gets elected my 20 gauge browning rabbit gun) all they want. They'll get no help from me. Fried catfish is more dangerous to eat than fruits and veggies. It doesn't mean that it's "too" dangerous. It just means you have to watch your intake.
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  8. #23
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    No worries. I think it's a misguided opinion, but you are certainly entitled to it.

    I do have one question, though - if non DAO pistols are so much safer, how come NOT ONE SINGLE MAJOR DEPARTMENT OR AGENCY uses them?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #24
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    Unfortunately we will always have some people that truly are less safe with guns, and people that are insufficiently trained and hence there is a greater chance they will mishandle their guns.

    But 'blame' is no salvation or protection to us regardless. The thinking is, if guns are the problem then we don't need them; if people are the problem then people don't need to own guns. Every time someone unintentionally discharges a firearm, it just supports the notion that people are not safe with guns.

    I'm sure that's frustrating to all of us, but that's reality.
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  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I do have one question, though - if non DAO pistols are so much safer, how come NOT ONE SINGLE MAJOR DEPARTMENT OR AGENCY uses them?

    My first guess would be...CAPACITY. Oh sure, here lately they've able to add more to the 1911 platform (still not as much) but when the switch was made it was a huge difference.
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  11. #26
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    I'm not so sure this is a DAO vs non-DAO issue as much as it is perceived degrees of discharge resistance. Based on what little info we have about this and many other unintentional discharge cases, trigger type has very little to do with the discharge.

    By that I mean that if a person intends to pull the trigger, thinking the gun is unloaded, then he pulls the trigger whether it's a short, light trigger or a heavy long trigger.

    I use to maintain that a longer, heavier trigger pull offers more resistance to a UD than a lighter shorter trigger, but I'm not so sure I still feel that way. Here's why:

    If a person has his finger on the trigger before he intends to shoot, his finger is in the wrong place. FBI studies show that on average a person under stress will apply some 25 lbs of force to a trigger. Other studies reveal that under stress, most often when one shot is fired, it turns out to be unintentional. The two studies support each other.

    The conclusion is that if a person has his finger on the trigger and it discharges, the pull weight and length really have nothing to do with it. BTW, in light of the FBI study, the FBI carries Glocks. Glocks aren't technically DAO, but they function exactly like a DAO to the user.
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  12. #27
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    Opinion without basis in fact is noise, and not worthy of entry into reasoned discourse. Not trying to be rude, but if the sole purpose of gathering here is noise, I've overstayed my welcome...and interest.

    Fact: DAOs are considered more "safe" because you have a looong pull to consider whether or not you wish to continue pulling.

    Subjective observation: DAOs seem to encourage violation of Rules 1 and 2, since the user is of the opinion that something touching the trigger isn't such a big deal since it takes a long pull,and muzzle sweeps aren't such a big deal fro the same reason.

    Fact: Glocks do not suffer fools lightly. As a friend with one of the vaunted Golck Fo'tays recently demonstrated. Regardless of what we say, pro or con, Glock takes less effort on the bang switch.

    Subjective personal observation: I am a more careful gun-handler because of Glock. Not only does my brain know where my booger-hook is when holding my weapon, my booger-hook appears to take Viagra.

    Anecdotal: Two generations of Navy Corpsmen (II & Korea, and Vietnam) tell me that NDs (not self-inflicted) weren't exactly unknown with the 1911. I could probably verify that through VAMC medical records, but they're kind of touchy about such perusal, right now.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    But don't most UDs happen during administrative handling?? Thus the benefit of a manual safety? I've got to check out to go to work, but everyone feel free to chime in...It's always a good discussion.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Cloud View Post
    But don't most UDs happen during administrative handling?? Thus the benefit of a manual safety? I've got to check out to go to work, but everyone feel free to chime in...It's always a good discussion.
    Most UDs occur when someone pulls the trigger, period. Like Tangle points out, UD trigger pulls under stress are enough to pull ANY trigger, and UDs not under stress are very often the "I didn't know it was loaded" type, where the shooter meant to pull the trigger and have the hammer fall/striker fire. As a side note, I remember reading about one test where they put people in a dark alley with their pistol loaded with Sims, and had them face a potential mugging. The "muggers" were not to actually attack, but to make it look as though an attack were likely. The good guys almost all drew and were prepared to use, but at this point the threat disengaged. While all this was going on, there was a "bum" laying down near the good guy...after the potential threat was averted, the bum would reach over and grab the GGs ankle. In this (admittedly unscientific) test, every single person who had their finger on the trigger fired a round (unintentionally), and every single person who did NOT have their finger on the trigger did not fire a round. In this particular situation (as in almost every other), it is bad trigger/finger discipline and not the action type that caused the UD.

    I will grant that Glocks do not take having their triggers pulled any better than any other pistol, and that it is usually easier to pull the trigger on a Glock. However, the point is that you still MUST pull the trigger. If you habitually pull the trigger on your weapon without meaning to fire, then I suggest you have problems far greater than any manual safety can fix.

    As for capacity - the "Hi-Power" carries exactly as many rounds in it as does my Sig, and the HP has been around a lot longer. If it were just capacity, the world would have been using these long ago. Note that when the military switched, there was NO OPTION for an SA pistol; after 75 years of using them, the military apparently decided that the SA design had been improved on as far as safety goes.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Opinion without basis in fact is noise, and not worthy of entry into reasoned discourse. Not trying to be rude, but if the sole purpose of gathering here is noise, I've overstayed my welcome...and interest.
    I'd have to disagree - it provides stimulating discussions that may bring out facts/truth/enlightenment beyond the case at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Fact: DAOs are considered more "safe" because you have a looong pull to consider whether or not you wish to continue pulling.
    I agree that it is fact that is what is commonly believed, but I can't agree that it is actually true from what FBI studies have revealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Subjective observation: DAOs seem to encourage violation of Rules 1 and 2, since the user is of the opinion that something touching the trigger isn't such a big deal since it takes a long pull,and muzzle sweeps aren't such a big deal fro the same reason.
    I agree whole-heartedly and have experienced that personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Fact: Glocks do not suffer fools lightly. As a friend with one of the vaunted Golck Fo'tays recently demonstrated.
    I think that's accurate. Although few guns do suffer fools lightly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Regardless of what we say, pro or con, Glock takes less effort on the bang switch.
    True but I'm not so sure what, if any, conclusions can be drawn from that except it does seem to enhance accuracy.

    As for intentional, unintentional discharges I don't think it matters. I know that sounds contadictory; I simply mean if a guy intentionally pulls the trigger, e.g. thinking it's unloaded, trigger characteristics are irrelevant.

    If the person has his finger on the trigger in stressful conditions, I can see where the lighter shorter trigger could be stress fired, i.e. fired by ever increasing subconscious force on the trigger as the stess builts or perhaps accumulates.

    However, under stess we need to consider that a Glock may very well be more resistant to a stress discharge than a cocked DA/SA in SA mode, or a 1911 with the thumb safety off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Subjective personal observation: I am a more careful gun-handler because of Glock. Not only does my brain know where my booger-hook is when holding my weapon, my booger-hook appears to take Viagra.
    Absolutely true for me as well. I notice I am more careful with my Glock than other guns and that carrying my Glock has made me more conscious of habits with other guns.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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