Agent breaks #1 rule.

This is a discussion on Agent breaks #1 rule. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've considered carrying my Sig cocked and "unlocked," and I'd probably give it a go if it weren't for agency regs. The SA pull is ...

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 46 to 60 of 60

Thread: Agent breaks #1 rule.

  1. #46
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,709
    I've considered carrying my Sig cocked and "unlocked," and I'd probably give it a go if it weren't for agency regs. The SA pull is 4.5 lbs - not that much different than some striker fired pistols. I'd do the same for a 1911, assuming in both cases a good quality holster that completely covers the trigger guard. A weapon properly carried like this should have a statistically insignificant chance to go off... Blasphemy to some, I realize, but there it is.

    And no, I don't trust most people more than mechanical devices. In fact, I don't trust them, period. No safety device, no trigger pull weight, no magic gizmo is going to stop a person from having a UD if they themselves are sloppy with their safety practices. Look how "safe" the TSA rules are/were, with lock boxes, locking holsters, blah blah blah... There have been UDs with all sorts of weapons under all sorts of circumstances; the one common factor in almost all of them (except the true instances of mechanical failure) is, of course, SOMEONE PULLED THE TRIGGER. If we remove that aspect, UDs go down to almost 0. Of course, the "safer" we make our weapons, the "less safe" our practices seem to be (reference the anecdotal evidence about increased fingers-on-the-triggers with DA pistols).

    I don't know what the answer is. I'm not willing to take away everyone's guns because so many of us (and let's face facts here) are or were at some point habitually unsafe. On the other hand, I'm not willing to overload my gun with a bunch of extraneous "safety" features to reduce the chance of one of these unsafe operators hurting someone.

    Perhaps the answer is something we don't want to hear - have an ND, lose your guns for a year. Have another, lose them forever.... Unenforceable, of course, but in theory that might help?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #47
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Gulfstream
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I've considered carrying my Sig cocked and "unlocked," and I'd probably give it a go if it weren't for agency regs. The SA pull is 4.5 lbs - not that much different than some striker fired pistols. I'd do the same for a 1911, assuming in both cases a good quality holster that completely covers the trigger guard. A weapon properly carried like this should have a statistically insignificant chance to go off... Blasphemy to some, I realize, but there it is.

    OOOOKKKAAAAYYYY THEN... If we can't even admit that some tools are less safe then others, it's no small wonder the antis think we're fanatics.

    And here's a newsflash...someone didn't always pull the trigger. A tube of lipstick in a womans purse, a cover garment, the dog stepped on it in the back of the truck...on and on and on. My GOD Opfor, I don't even know what to say anymore...I suppose you sleep with a glock under your pillow if it's so safe. Don't be surprised then if you fail to wake up one morning.
    "Any rationally thinking person is armed" ---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis

    NRA member

  4. #48
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,709
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Cloud View Post
    OOOOKKKAAAAYYYY THEN... If we can't even admit that some tools are less safe then others, it's no small wonder the antis think we're fanatics.
    All tools are safe if handled safely. Some people are less safe than others. And yes, I'm fanatical about my own procedures.
    And here's a newsflash...someone didn't always pull the trigger. A tube of lipstick in a womans purse,
    Negligence. Don't store your weapon in a bag full of junk with out the trigger guard being covered.
    a cover garment,
    Negligence. Control your weapon all the way into the holster, and check for obstructions.
    the dog stepped on it in the back of the truck...
    Negligence. Why do you have a loaded, unsecured weapon with an exposed trigger laying in the back of a truck for a dog to step on in the first place?
    on and on and on.
    And almost all quite easily avoided by even the simplest procedures. There are accidents, here and there, that cannot be attributed to human error, but these are not examples of that.
    My GOD Opfor, I don't even know what to say anymore...I suppose you sleep with a glock under your pillow if it's so safe.
    I use Sigs, but I would sleep with a properly holstered Glock under my pillow if I thought there was some purpose to such a practice.
    Don't be surprised then if you fail to wake up one morning.
    Last I checked, none of us get out alive, anyway...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #49
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    OPFOR,

    We're not trying to argue a point here, just discuss implications of various thoughts. E.g. we seem to have discovered a conundrum if you will. On the one hand we don't want to believe that equipment can or would make a difference, but OTOH, if we take that through its natural course, we're gonna have people carrying cocked and unlocked 1911s, cocked DA/SAs and we have to ask, is that gonna be a good idea?

    It's a tough question. I've talked to several people I consider authorities about such issues and I get mixed responses. One says FBI stats show that fewer UDs occur with long trigger pulls. Another says and FBI stats show trigger pulls don't matter.

    But, if we take the position that trigger pulls and safeties don't matter, we have to face the possibility that people will justify carrying unlocked 1911s and cocked DA/SAs because we've said trigger pulls and safeties don't matter.

    Having said that, I can not disagree with your statement:

    "I've considered carrying my Sig cocked and "unlocked," and I'd probably give it a go if it weren't for agency regs. The SA pull is 4.5 lbs - not that much different than some striker fired pistols. I'd do the same for a 1911, assuming in both cases a good quality holster that completely covers the trigger guard. A weapon properly carried like this should have a statistically insignificant chance to go off... Blasphemy to some, I realize, but there it is."

    I gotta tell you carrying a Sig cocked is appealing to me. The biggest risk I see is if the gun was unholstered from a fall or struggle. While I wouldn't be concerned about the drop, I am a bit concerned that if anything came in contact with the trigger while it was coming out of, or already out of the holster, it could easily break a shot. A 1911 would have a grip safety that would help prevent that situational discharge, but then there we are making a gun safer with a mechanical device.

    I don't see anything promising that will eliminate UDs any more than anything can prevent vehicular 'collisions'. But some things may reduce certain types of discharges, e.g. a mag disconnect. If the regs required a mag disconnect and the mag to be removed before the gun was unholstered or secured, this incident likely would not have happened.

    I realize most are staunchly opposed to mag disconnects, but I have come to really like them. I'd pay extra to have a mag disconnect on my Glock, not just for safety implications, but for the convenience it provides as well.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  6. #50
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,709
    Right on, Tangle. I don't know where the line is drawn - only that it is drawn differently for everyone. Obviously, some folks "feel" safer with devices of one sort or another, and some more-or-less true accidents (gun falling in a struggle, trigger catching on something on the ground) could be prevented by action types or safeties. I also don't believe that most people are safe enough to be around firearms at all - though I will support their right to do so none the less - and that no amount of safety devices will make them so. I really don't want "your" (not you, obviously, but the general ND having populace) lack of care to mandate what I must have on my defensive firearms...

    And I am ambivalent about mag disconnects. I used to be strongly opposed, but they have proven to be resistant to malfunction, and I can see their utility in many situations. I can see other - less likely but possibly life threatening - situations where they would be bad...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Cloud View Post
    [B][I]And here's a newsflash...someone didn't always pull the trigger. A tube of lipstick in a womans purse, a cover garment, the dog stepped on it in the back of the truck...on and on and on. My GOD Opfor, I don't even know what to say anymore...I suppose you sleep with a glock under your pillow if it's so safe. Don't be surprised then if you fail to wake up one morning.
    Different operational standards. I know a fellow that spent much of the 80s in South America- he carried a 1911 cocked and unlocked. "Home gunsmithing"; the thumbsafety was replaced with a screw filed flush, and a roll-pinned grip safety. Mexican carry. The idea gives me the heebie-jeebies, but if the motions are trained-in...

    There's been discussion on a couple of other forums regarding "common denominator" training. Fact is, some folks look at life and realize that statistically they won't have to go H2H, disengage; finish it off as a running gun battle, then scale a 5 story building with a rope to rescue their family. They are content with (an example) a 3913, and watching football on the weekend rather than going to the gym. I won't exactly say "Buford", but close.

    The other extreme are guys who plan to kick Lou Ferrigno's younger brother's butt one-handed while engaging Rob Latham's evil half-twin at 40 yards, while ascending the Eiffel Tower.

    Interestingly, I've known guys from the BTDT camp who live at either ends of this spectrum. This gets into a big genetics/psychological competency debate, but, FWIW, in current context...

    People operate differently, to state the obvious. In the context of use and handling of firearms, there are flaws in design or flaws in usage. At this stage of development, we've ironed out the basic flaws in design, its the flaws in usage that catch us. To use another analogy, I may own a Mazeratti, but if I try to drive like a stunt drive from Miami Vice, I'm going to get myself in trouble. Operator error.

    My personal take is that if one wears a uniform, one is a defender of society, and we must demand superior performance. Whether its the 400 pound paramedic who can't make it up a flight of stairs without looking like he's going to stroke-out, or the LE who NDs in the toilet with his DAO- its unacceptable. We face the two-fold challenge of intransigence and self-justification on the part of those who do not wish to meet a higher standard, and the Bureaucracy that mandates training and performance to the lowest common denominator.

    Tangle, my reference to NDs with the 1911 was legit NDs vs. shooting one's self in the foot/hand/leg to get medically pulled.

  8. #52
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    Yep, nothing seems 'universal' i.e. something beneficial in one situation may prove to be deterimental in another.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  9. #53
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    ...Tangle, my reference to NDs with the 1911 was legit NDs vs. shooting one's self in the foot/hand/leg to get medically pulled.
    ??? Sounds intriguing but, I'm not quite following ??? I don't recall me doubting your statement about that ???
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  10. #54
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    Rob72,
    I'm still chuckling at some of the SD scenarios you 'paraphrased' from the lowest common denominator offerings. I have to say, I've seen the same thing. Too much TV and movie influence perhaps?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Anecdotal: Two generations of Navy Corpsmen (II & Korea, and Vietnam) tell me that NDs (not self-inflicted) weren't exactly unknown with the 1911. I could probably verify that through VAMC medical records, but they're kind of touchy about such perusal, right now.
    This is what I was talking about. NDs resulting in injury tend to be suspect during time of war. I mentioned this, illustrating that multiple mechanical safetys cannot overcome carelessness or dumb (nor totally dismissed, as "well they meant to do that...").

    On the "scenarios", yes and no. To be honest, if stuff happens, its likely to happen in a bad way. I know of two publicised home-invasions in Houston, TX (2006, IIRC), where homeowners responded with a shotgun grabbed from the backrest of the couch (the owners were watching TV), and a Glock grabbed from the top of a coffee table (also while the owners were seated in the living room).

    That would seem extreme to many people, but in both instances, the homeowners had firepower immediately to hand, and some plan of utilizing it. That's not simply, "well, we have a gun in the house..."

    Equally, there have been several instances where couples, and sometimes more than a single couple in one incident, were captured and tortured and/or killed. The cases can be evaluated a variety of ways, but the common denominator is that the dead had no means or willingness, or it was grossly inadequate to the point of being "talismanic".

    As for me, I have lots of areas I want to improve on, but I'm modestly happy with the assessment a 240# power-lifting ex-JV friend gave of me: "If I got my hands on you, I'd hurt you...but I'd want to strip search you before I got that close... you'd shank my butt or something..."

    If your PRA is "higher than average", you want to be smarter/meaner/faster/harder than the other guy. More or less in that order, IMO...

  12. #56
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    Rob,

    I don't know if I posted this in this thread or another but...

    An instructor was asked to do a CCW class and he decided to do some research on the nature of crime in the area. What he found was stunning.

    He discovered in all cases of home invasion in this particular area, none of the home owners had a gun on them or particularly convenient; some had to load their guns. I can't remember the average number of shots fired, but all home owners prevailed.

    His research also showed that the home owners had little or no training, did not use cover or concealment, nor a tactical light.

    I would never conclude that this proves we don't have to have a gun on us, or that we don't need training, but it is undeniable that it worked numerous times for numerous people. I can also say I don't really understand how this could be, but....
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Rob,

    I don't know if I posted this in this thread or another but...

    An instructor was asked to do a CCW class and he decided to do some research on the nature of crime in the area. What he found was stunning.

    He discovered in all cases of home invasion in this particular area, none of the home owners had a gun on them or particularly convenient; some had to load their guns. I can't remember the average number of shots fired, but all home owners prevailed.

    His research also showed that the home owners had little or no training, did not use cover or concealment, nor a tactical light.

    I would never conclude that this proves we don't have to have a gun on us, or that we don't need training, but it is undeniable that it worked numerous times for numerous people. I can also say I don't really understand how this could be, but....
    I remember reading that. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't:

    Delays expected in Christian-Newsom carjacking trials : Christian-Newsom : Knoxville News Sentinel

    My question is always, "If you or a loved one were critically injured, would you want the paramedics relying on luck...? Then why should we rely on luck to prevent injury in the first place?"

    Personally, I want a BG to feel like he grabbed a piece of bearass...
    BTW, I apply the same model to my Practice of care...LOL!

  14. #58
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    I understand what you're saying Rob; I feel the same way. But I doubt we can attribute the findings of the study to luck; the study included many, many incidents of home intrusion and each one the author referred to there were shots fired.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    You're right, more bad planning by the invaders. I did work with inmates for a time. Generally the robbers depend on surprise and show of force. Something breaking their OODA, particularly something that looks like a real fight is generally dissuasive.

    I'm not arguing per se. I just feel its less than optimal to tell someone to feel good because they have a firearm, and don't believe they would have a problem using it to defend themselves.

    Violence can be broken down into psychological and dynamic-interpersonal. Psychological violence can be pre-empted by stronger will (not cowering) or by escalating into dynamic-interpersonal (demonstrating will to fight). If we encounter someone who's already in D-I mode, we're waaaay behind. Most robbers rely on psychological violence, since they either don't want the time for actual battery (felonious possession of a firearm or felony assault is easier to plead than actually hurting someone) or they really don't have the mindset.

    Relying on the behavior of an unknown initiator is luck. The study simply tells us that at that given time, most robbers were not dedicated enough to risk physical harm for a return. If the number of armed resistors increases, the less dedicated BGs will deveolp alternative tactics. The "dedicated" ones will increase their application of initial violence. Is it worth it? Well, a higher number of armed homeowners means presence of firearms and ammunition. Certainly marketable commodities. That's evolutionary behavior. Pretty much what was seen with prohibition and the drug trade in the 80s.

  16. #60
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    I wasn't implying, or was not my intent, that we should rely on the incompetence of the intruder to give us time to respond. My only point was actual cases show many SD scenarios are not the wild west affairs often depicted.

    Very likely, if we had enough cases, we would find that home invasion characteristics follow the classic bell curve where on one extreme it merely takes the home owners presence, the other extreme would require immediate lethal force to prevent death or serious bodily harm and the vast majority would be somewhere in between.

    My remarks were in support of your descriptions of what is not required, not to suggest the outcomes revealed in this study is the way it will always be, nor would it be a model to follow. My remarks were just to simply recognize that many gunfights do not require significant amounts of training, a fast draw, use of cover, and use of a tactical light.

    Plus, John Lott or Gary Kleck or both, estimate that guns are used in SD some 2 million times a year. I can't imagine that many people having significant training, etc. If they did have, why did they let themselves get in that situation in the first place?

    In a perfect world, we'd all have more training than the BGs, practice regularly and shoot from all kinds of positions, use cover effectively, etc. But in our real world only a very small percentage of people will do that; and likely, because of training, they understand the importance of awareness, and where possible, escape and evade is far more preferable than a confrontation.

    But sure, I agree wholeheartedly that it is very deceptive for a person to think there is protection in owning a gun per se.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Someone breaks into your home, neighbor calls 911
    By narcberry in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: July 30th, 2009, 08:50 PM
  2. Fire Breaks Out at Beretta Gun Factory in Maryland
    By mkh in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: January 20th, 2009, 07:54 AM
  3. Bear breaks into Circuit City
    By JonInNY in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: July 17th, 2008, 12:13 PM
  4. I don't have to run away like a little scared guy if a BG breaks in
    By Dakotaranger in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: April 29th, 2007, 12:11 PM