Big Brother

This is a discussion on Big Brother within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by HotGuns Self Defense.. I've got a better idea. Lets just cut though the preliminary BS and just get a chip implanted in ...

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 100

Thread: Big Brother

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Cap'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    1,100
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Self Defense..
    I've got a better idea.

    Lets just cut though the preliminary BS and just get a chip implanted in the forehard or the right hand.

    That way, law enforcement wont be impeded, you wont have to carry anything in your wallet because you wont need one, the privacy that you could care less about will be forever gone,everything will be nice and convienient, the world will be one big happy family and we can all sing Kumbaya while living happily ever after.
    Well said HotGuns!

    Self Defense, your statement about people being against RFID because they have something to hide is a cop out. I've got nothing to hide, but I dang sure don't want the government to have the power to know every little detail of my daily life and were I'm located at any given time. This IS an envasion of my privacy living in a "free country". I don't like the idea of "papers please".
    Welcome to Tennessee, the patron state of shootin' stuff.--SHOOTER

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #32
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by MR D View Post
    Self Defense

    I agree the "Right to Anonymouty" does not exist... But it has been well argued by scholars and other that there are rights "not enumerated" in the constitution (or its amendments) which are still rights...
    The rights not enumerated are encompassed by the Ninth Amendment. The problem is that since they are not enmuerated there is no argument as to what they may or may not be. There are other rights, but they are not specifically protected by the Constitution since we do not know what they are.

    you said "Metal detectors are never mandatory thus that is not a search and electronic communications that is not in your possession is certainly not a search." I could not disagree more, try to see your judges, legislators or ride as a fare paying passenger without passing through them...
    But that is all a choice. No one is forcing you do enter a metal detector. I do not have a problem with states prohibiting weapons in a court house or raher to know whois and who is not carrying. I am ambivalent concerning carrying in Federal buildings. The Constitution prohibits infringement of the right to bear arms. But prohibiting carry in a Federal building does not necessarily infringe on either keeping or bearing arms, just not in that particular place. Just as I can disallow you carrying on my property, the Federal government can disallow you carrying on Federal property. (Which ties in to Heller but that is a blanket prohibition.)

    last I checked we still had the right to be secure in our persons and papers - so answer me this: in our modern (and increasingly paperless) society - what are our papers? Should government agents be required to get a warrant before they search through the contents of your laptop? (This is commonly done to international travelers as they enter/re-enter the US...
    I think it is a completely different issue as to searching contents of anything coming in to the country versus searching a laptop in your home. I have no problem with a complete search of anyone entering our country. It was a citizen's choice to leave in the first place.

    I think the Constitution is very clear. No where is the mention of any electronic media thus the Federal government is not abridging the Constitution by passing laws that allow for searching of email, telephone calls, or anything that is not papers or effects. A laptop in your possession is an effect. Data on its way to your laptop is not. If we want to amend the Constitution to protect the transit of electronic communications there is a well defined process. But to devine that protection based on a the whim of a judge is nonsense.

    I certainly think that those types of communications should be protected to a degree but it is necessary to intercept communications in certain cases to secure our nation against foreign invasion, which is exactly what the Patriot Act (insofar as intercepting communications of terrorists) intends.

  4. #33
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    Bruce Schneier - The ID Chip You Don't Want in Your Passport - washingtonpost.com

    The ID Chip You Don't Want in Your Passport

    By Bruce Schneier
    Saturday, September 16, 2006; Page A21

    If you have a passport, now is the time to renew it -- even if it's not set to expire anytime soon. If you don't have a passport and think you might need one, now is the time to get it. In many countries, including the United States, passports will soon be equipped with RFID chips. And you don't want one of these chips in your passport.

    RFID stands for "radio-frequency identification." Passports with RFID chips store an electronic copy of the passport information: your name, a digitized picture, etc. And in the future, the chip might store fingerprints or digital visas from various countries.


    Who's Blogging?
    Read what bloggers are saying about this article.
    make it news
    praxis22
    EngineeringEthicsBlog


    Full List of Blogs (139 links) »


    Most Blogged About Articles
    On washingtonpost.com | On the web


    Save & Share
    Tag This Article


    Saving options
    1. Save to description:
    Headline (required)
    Byline

    2. Save to notes (255 character max):
    Blurb

    3. Tag This Article

    By itself, this is no problem. But RFID chips don't have to be plugged in to a reader to operate. Like the chips used for automatic toll collection on roads or automatic fare collection on subways, these chips operate via proximity. The risk to you is the possibility of surreptitious access: Your passport information might be read without your knowledge or consent by a government trying to track your movements, a criminal trying to steal your identity or someone just curious about your citizenship.

    At first the State Department belittled those risks, but in response to criticism from experts it has implemented some security features. Passports will come with a shielded cover, making it much harder to read the chip when the passport is closed. And there are now access-control and encryption mechanisms, making it much harder for an unauthorized reader to collect, understand and alter the data.

    Although those measures help, they don't go far enough. The shielding does no good when the passport is open. Travel abroad and you'll notice how often you have to show your passport: at hotels, banks, Internet cafes. Anyone intent on harvesting passport data could set up a reader at one of those places. And although the State Department insists that the chip can be read only by a reader that is inches away, the chips have been read from many feet away.

    The other security mechanisms are also vulnerable, and several security researchers have already discovered flaws. One found that he could identify individual chips via unique characteristics of the radio transmissions. Another successfully cloned a chip. The State Department called this a "meaningless stunt," pointing out that the researcher could not read or change the data. But the researcher spent only two weeks trying; the security of your passport has to be strong enough to last 10 years.

    This is perhaps the greatest risk. The security mechanisms on your passport chip have to last the lifetime of your passport. It is as ridiculous to think that passport security will remain secure for that long as it would be to think that you won't see another security update for Microsoft Windows in that time. Improvements in antenna technology will certainly increase the distance at which they can be read and might even allow unauthorized readers to penetrate the shielding.

    Whatever happens, if you have a passport with an RFID chip, you're stuck. Although popping your passport in the microwave will disable the chip, the shielding will cause all kinds of sparking. And although the United States has said that a nonworking chip will not invalidate a passport, it is unclear if one with a deliberately damaged chip will be honored.

    The Colorado passport office is already issuing RFID passports, and the State Department expects all U.S. passport offices to be doing so by the end of the year. Many other countries are in the process of changing over. So get a passport before it's too late. With your new passport you can wait another 10 years for an RFID passport, when the technology will be more mature, when we will have a better understanding of the security risks and when there will be other technologies we can use to cut the risks. You don't want to be a guinea pig on this one.

    Bruce Schneier writes often on security subjects.

  5. #34
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    ID Chip's Controversial Approval


    ID Chip's Controversial Approval


    The FDA sent chip manufacturer Applied Digital Solutions a letter stating that the agency would not regulate the VeriChip if it was used for "security, financial and personal identification or safety applications," ADS said Tuesday.

    But the FDA has not determined whether the controversial chip can be used for medical purposes, including linking to medical databases, the company added. In the United States, ADS has principally marketed VeriChip as a life-saving tool, saying, for example, that unconscious patients brought to emergency rooms could be scanned to determine their medical histories.

    Repeated phone calls to the FDA's press office were not returned Tuesday, and ADS refused to provide the media with a copy of the agency's letter.

    The decision comes five months after ADS made international headlines by implanting three members of a Florida family with the VeriChip, which is slightly larger than a grain of rice and emits a 125-kilohertz radio frequency signal that can be picked up by a scanner up to four feet away.

    In an interview earlier this month, FDA investigator Wally Pellerite said he was unaware of any implantable device that was not regulated by the FDA. Cosmetic implants -– including breast and penile enhancers -– undergo a rigorous FDA examination to determine their effect on the human body despite having no medical function.

    Although ID chips have been used in animals for years, they may have "inherent risks" when used in humans, Pellerite said in the interview.

    On Tuesday, Pellerite referred questions to the FDA press office.

    "At this point, I can't say anything other than to represent what the official agency opinion is in this matter," he wrote in an e-mail. "Previously I was free to give you both sides of the argument and to point out the pros and cons to each. I am no longer free to do that."

    Applied Digital Solutions has gotten into hot water in the past for issuing conflicting statements to the media and to the FDA about the VeriChip's intended use. In May, the FDA launched an investigation into the VeriChip when the company repeatedly referred to the chip as a medical lifesaver in the media, yet assured officials it was merely an identification device.

    Tuesday's press release was also confusing, with ADS repeatedly referring to VeriChip as a medical device despite the fact that the FDA has not ruled whether the chip may be used for health purposes.

    ADS president Scott Silverman did not comment on the release, but said he was pleased with the FDA's decision.

    "We'll now go into high gear with our sales, marketing and distribution plans in the U.S.," he said, adding that the company would be focusing on the security and ID aspects of the microchip.

    Silverman said security applications could include using the chip to control access to sensitive structures such as nuclear power plants, government buildings or private businesses. An example of an ID application could include "chipping" an Alzheimer's patient who suffers memory loss and wanders away from home, he added.

    Richard Smith, a privacy expert who follows the VeriChip, suggested the device should have been subjected to a full FDA review to determine its safety.

    "Does ADS have any data for complications of VeriChips being installed in animals?" Smith asked. "Are there ever infection problems or autoimmune rejections? Since the FDA has chosen to not test the device, the next best thing is to try to understand if there have been health-related problems in animals."

    Meanwhile, Leslie Jacobs, the matriarch of the Florida family chipped in May, said she hoped the FDA would approve the VeriChip for medical use. Both her husband and son experience ongoing health problems.

    "People who need this should be able to elect to have it," she said. "The VeriChip could help saves lives

  6. #35
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    Driver's licenses to feature radio chips

    Driver's licenses to feature radio chips
    State introducing cards that encode personal information

    The state of Washington announced a pilot project to introduce a driver's license "enhanced" with a radio frequency identification, or RFID, chip that would encode personal information and possibly serve as a passport-alternative if approved by the Department of Homeland Security.
    Democratic Gov. Christine Gregoire signed a bill March 23 allowing Washington residents to apply for the $40 voluntary driver's license beginning in January.

    Gregoire spokeswoman Kristin Jacobsen told WND in an e-mail the enhanced license is intended to be an alternative way of complying with theWestern Hemisphere Travel Initiative mandated by the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004.

    (Story continues below)

    The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, the Real ID Act, the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America all call for ID technology to be built into drivers' licenses, passports and other types of border-crossing identification.

    Concerns are being expressed within the Department of Homeland Security, however, regarding the wisdom of applying RFID technology to human identification programs.

    Under the WHTI, as of Jan. 23 all citizens of the U.S., Canada, and Mexico were required to present a valid passport, or some other federally accepted document, to enter or re-enter the U.S. by air travel.

    As early as Jan. 1, 2008, these passport requirements will be extended to all citizens of the U.S., Canada, and Mexico who enter or re-enter the U.S. by land or sea, extending even to ferry travel.

    The Department of Homeland Security is in the process of setting requirements regarding acceptable documentation and preparing to implement the passport requirements under the WHTI.

    Jacobsen told WND the Washington state enhanced driver's license will require verified proof of citizenship, identity and residence.

    "They will look similar to current licenses and ID cards," Jacobsen explained, "but will have an icon on the front that indicates the holder is a U.S. citizen."

    The $40 fee for the RFID license is designed to be less than the cost to apply for a passport ($97 on initial application, plus $67 to renew every 15 years). Regular driver's licenses in Washington state cost $25 to renew every five years.

    "The enhanced driver's license will cost significantly less than a passport, but will carry many of the same features," Jacobsen stressed. "Features will include an embedded technology that will allow for quick and effective identification checks at border crossings."

    Naomi Elmer, a spokeswoman for DHS, confirmed to WND that DHS is working with Washington state on the RFID enhanced driver's license pilot test.

    Yet, Elmer positioned the Washington initiative under the Real ID, not under the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative.

    "Currently we are working with Washington state because they came to us with a proposal to see if they could create an ID that would be acceptable for Real ID," she said.

    "Right now, we are now fulfilling the congressional mandate proposing minimum standards for state-issued driver's licenses and ID cards that the federal agencies would accept for official purposes," Elmer said. "These requirements will go into effect after May 11, 2008."

    Elmer acknowledged not all state drivers' licenses can be reissued by that date.

    "DHS is permitting states to apply for and receive extensions up to Dec. 31, 2009," she said. "For the states that are receiving extensions, their drivers' licenses will need to meet our requirements by Jan. 1, 2010."

    Elmer told WND that DHS is working with Washington state on its RFID-enhanced driver's license proposal.

    "We are still working out the details with Washington state at this time," Elmer said

    DHS has not yet approved Washington state's proposal, she noted.

    Within DHS, there is controversy over whether RFID technology should be applied to ID cards.

    On Dec. 6, 2006, the Data Privacy & Integrity Advisory Committee advised DHS against the use of RFID for human identity verification. Concerns over invasion of privacy and whether RFID information could be kept secure were primary considerations in the committee's recommendation that DHS proceed cautiously before implementing the program.

    Elmer also told WND that Washington state's proposal had nothing to do with the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America.

    Under SPP, the "2005 Report to the Leaders" specified the SPP working groups have determined that "trusted travelers of North America" will be issued bio-metric border crossing passes, similar to the electronic measures being issued trucks and other commercial vehicles under the "trusted trader of North America" initiative.

    The Real ID Act of 2005 was passed as Division B of the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005.

    DHS has issued proposed minimum standards for driver's licenses and identification cards under the Real ID Act.

    Still, a move to reject the Real ID Act is gaining momentum at the grassroots level, with nearly half the states voting not to participate.

    Idaho, Maine and Arkansas have passed state resolutions rejecting participation.

    Other states – including Arizona, Georgia, Montana, New Mexico, Utah, Vermont and Wyoming – are considering similar legislation.

    Bills rejecting Real ID also have been introduced in Hawaii, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina and West Virginia.

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    Border Officials Try New ID System : NPR

    Border Officials Try New ID System

    NPR.org, January 31, 2008 · Beginning Thursday, travelers entering the U.S. by land or sea from Canada or Mexico must show proof of identity and citizenship in order to gain entry. Up until now, Americans could basically declare themselves U.S. citizens and cross the border. It was up to the customs officer to decide whether more documents were needed.

    What kinds of documents will border agents want to see now? And will agents send you home if you don't have them? Read the basics of the new rules:

    What documents should I have with me?

    Travelers age 19 and older must provide a passport or government-issued photo ID along with proof of citizenship, such as a birth certificate.

    Many documents prove both identity and citizenship. According to the Department of Homeland Security Web site, they are:


    U.S. or Canadian passport
    U.S. passport card
    Trusted traveler cards such as Nexus, Secure Electronic Network for Travelers Rapid Inspection (SENTRI) and Free and Secure Trade (FAST)
    State- or provincial-issued enhanced driver's license
    Enhanced tribal cards
    U.S. military ID with military travel orders
    U.S. Merchant Mariner Document
    Native American tribal photo identification card
    Form I-872 American Indian card
    Indian and Northern Affairs Canada card

    However, if you don't have one of these documents, you can show border agents a photo ID such as a driver's license or government-issued or military ID card and citizenship documents such as a birth certificate, certificate of citizenship or naturalization.

    Children age 18 and under are required to present only proof of citizenship, such as a birth certificate.

    People who are entering the U.S. legally but are not citizens will be required to show their permanent resident card or other evidence of legal status.

    What happens if I have the wrong documents?

    No one will be prevented entry just for lack of the right documents – at least for a while.

    Those who do not have proof of citizenship are likely to receive a warning. Leaving your proof at home, however, could mean waiting longer at the border as DHS verifies your citizenship.

    DHS will be flexible during what is a sort of warm-up for the summer of 2009, when everyone will be required to show a passport, passport card or certain secure driver's licenses to cross the border.

    Why the change?

    The 9/11 Commission's report suggested more secure documentation for U.S. entry to improve security. Officials say that thousands of people cross the border each year using phony IDs.

    Critics say you can expect to wait longer to cross the border. But the initial reports indicate that the change has not led to any unusual backups. That could change in the coming months, however, as customs officers become more stringent about the new requirements.

    What does it mean for lines at the border?

    Critics say you can expect to wait longer to cross the border. But the initial reports indicate that the change has not led to any unusual backups. However, that could change in the coming months, as customs officers become more stringent about the new requirements.

    What is an enhanced driver's license and a passport card?

    The government has been developing new forms of ID that would streamline border stops, especially for residents of border states and towns.

    Some states have promised to issue new licenses that include a radio-frequency identification (RFID) chip. The cards are quickly scanned at the border, and the guard can look at a secure database that pulls up biographic information about the person, including a photo and the results of terrorist/criminal checks.

    Washington State is the first state to begin offering drivers the enhanced licenses. Several border states – including Arizona, California, Michigan, Texas, Vermont and New York — are working with the government to also offer them.

    U.S. passports issued since 2006 contain RFID chips.

    The new U.S. passport card – which the State Department will begin issuing this spring – will be wallet-sized and embedded with an RFID chip that, like an enhanced driver's license, will link to a U.S. government database containing biographical data and a photograph. Unlike the familiar passport book, however, the card may not be used to travel by air.

    The government is touting passport cards as a less expensive and more portable alternative to the traditional passport book. The cards are valid for the same length of time as the books — 10 years for an adult, five for children 15 and younger. Adults who already have a passport book can apply for the card as a passport renewal and pay $20. Adults who are first-time passport applicants will pay $45, children will pay $35 — less than half of what a traditional passport costs.


    By Heidi Glenn, with reporting by Pam Fessler.

  8. #37
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Self Defense..
    I've got a better idea.

    Lets just cut though the preliminary BS and just get a chip implanted in the forehard or the right hand.
    I would be all for the voluntary use of a chip that would encompass my social security, drivers license, bank account, and all the other nonsense that I currently carry in my wallet. If you prefer carrying a thick wallet, you are free to do so. I would cetainly be against the government forcing me to implant a chip, but that is not what we are talking about.

    That way, law enforcement wont be impeded, you wont have to carry anything in your wallet because you wont need one, the privacy that you could care less about will be forever gone,everything will be nice and convienient, the world will be one big happy family and we can all sing Kumbaya while living happily ever after.
    I'm not sure what singing Kumbaya has to do with the issue. I don't even know the words!

    I think the issue is whether a government official should have the power to identify a citizen. I can see absolutely no negatives and a huge number of positives.

    And I do care about my privacy. It is not as if the government is constantly and randomly invading privacy. Let's face it. The government does not really care who you are and what you do. But the fact is that there is nothing to prohibit them from identifying you and making certain you are not breaking the law (up to the dreaded search of your person and effects.) And I see no reason not to cooperate with authorities.

    I have an anecdote. I was once driving through a parking lot to get to a street from a business on the other side of the lot. I was lit up as soon as I left the parking lot and held at gun point (after I stupidly exited my vehicle.) The officer told me the place that I was cming from just had a silent alarm go off. Should I have been outraged that he asked for identification or should I have told him who I was, and the reason I was driving through the parking lot?

  9. #38
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    The only needs for this chip, etc :
    - Failure to control our Borders - People and Cargo
    - Failure to deport illegals
    - Job Security is created somewhat on the Borders but much Job Security is created all across the USA internally virtually in every State, County, and City because of the failures to control our Borders and deport illegals

    Many people in high places will make thousands and thousands of dollars from the this and other programs, much Job Security will be created and many new government jobs will be create to support this crapola.

    Perceived Security at best, high risk of ID Theft, just like many other government data bases have been accessed by hackers.

    Complete waste of effort, money, and time.

    Just a program dreamed to make lots of money for some, others long term Job Security, power trip for many, etc.

    Congress needs to stand on it's own two legs and stop this waste, fraud, and abuse.

  10. #39
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n View Post
    Well said HotGuns!

    Self Defense, your statement about people being against RFID because they have something to hide is a cop out. I've got nothing to hide, but I dang sure don't want the government to have the power to know every little detail of my daily life and were I'm located at any given time. This IS an envasion of my privacy living in a "free country". I don't like the idea of "papers please".
    And where you're located? Where did that come from? We are discussing identifying yourself to the government, not having them track you.

    And the government already knows pretty much all the details of your life. How, where and how much money you make. Where you live. How many kids you have. Where you got a driver's license. Your contributions to SS and Medicare. Whether you are married. Whether you were in the service. Whether you have a criminal record.

    So what?

    If you want to drop out of society you probably can. But to live in civilization it is necessary to comply with societal rules and regulations.

  11. #40
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I would be all for the voluntary use of a chip that would encompass my social security, drivers license, bank account, and all the other nonsense that I currently carry in my wallet. If you prefer carrying a thick wallet, you are free to do so. I would cetainly be against the government forcing me to implant a chip, but that is not what we are talking about.



    I'm not sure what singing Kumbaya has to do with the issue. I don't even know the words!

    I think the issue is whether a government official should have the power to identify a citizen. I can see absolutely no negatives and a huge number of positives.

    And I do care about my privacy. It is not as if the government is constantly and randomly invading privacy. Let's face it. The government does not really care who you are and what you do. But the fact is that there is nothing to prohibit them from identifying you and making certain you are not breaking the law (up to the dreaded search of your person and effects.) And I see no reason not to cooperate with authorities.

    I have an anecdote. I was once driving through a parking lot to get to a street from a business on the other side of the lot. I was lit up as soon as I left the parking lot and held at gun point (after I stupidly exited my vehicle.) The officer told me the place that I was cming from just had a silent alarm go off. Should I have been outraged that he asked for identification or should I have told him who I was, and the reason I was driving through the parking lot?
    From above:

    # 1

    " I'm not sure what singing Kumbaya has to do with the issue. I don't even know the words!"

    Do an internet search for "singing Kumbaya" , it will explain all to you.

    # 2

    "I think the issue is whether a government official should have the power to identify a citizen. I can see absolutely no negatives and a huge number of positives."

    I read and re-read your statement above:
    - What part of the world is he from ?
    - Do they no longer require World History and American History in the school systems any more in High School ?
    - Has he ever heard of World War II, Korea, Viet Nam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq in the 1990's, China - all within the last 70 years or so, not counting over the past 2000 years or so.


    # 3

    Stands to make money on this issue either by sales, commission, or job security ?

  12. #41
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    # 2

    "I think the issue is whether a government official should have the power to identify a citizen. I can see absolutely no negatives and a huge number of positives."

    I read and re-read your statement above:
    - What part of the world is he from ?
    - Do they no longer require World History and American History in the school systems any more in High School ?
    - Has he ever heard of World War II, Korea, Viet Nam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq in the 1990's, China - all within the last 70 years or so, not counting over the past 2000 years or so.


    # 3

    Stands to make money on this issue either by sales, commission, or job security ?

  13. #42
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,816
    I think the issue is whether a government official should have the power to identify a citizen. I can see absolutely no negatives and a huge number of positives.
    First, the "system will be totally and completely voluntary. Eventually,it will migrate into something that is not voluntary but mandatory.

    Eventually, it will be required to do anything and everything. Something as simple as a bank transaction will be denied, a toll pass, doing business at Walmart. Soon it will be required to be employed,go to school, adopt a child, walk into the ER for emergency care.

    No negatives huh? What about that "government official" that happens to hate Jews, or gays or perhaps even the political party that you happen to be affiliated with that isn't so popular at that moment in time? History shows that abuse can and will take place and is guaranteed to happen.

    All of this ID crap is just a step in direction of total domination. I know what the BOOK says about it...that the government that requires every man woman and child to be instantly identifiable to that government will be the most oppressive government ever know to man.

    You want that? Its the people that refuse to see it that will allow it to happen,and when it does happen it will be under the guise of "peace and safety".

    Nothing new there...
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  14. #43
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    First, the "system will be totally and completely voluntary. Eventually,it will migrate into something that is not voluntary but mandatory.
    The ol' slippery slope. What evidence do you have that a voluntary technological advancement that you do not want becomes a governmental mandate. Does the government require you to have a telephone? A television? An internet connection? Does the government mandate that you have a credit card? Of course not.

    Eventually, it will be required to do anything and everything. Something as simple as a bank transaction will be denied, a toll pass, doing business at Walmart. Soon it will be required to be employed,go to school, adopt a child, walk into the ER for emergency care.
    And where is there evidence that RealID (or a any RFstore of information will cause you to be denied service? There is no connection at all. It is already necessary for you to show identification to get a job, adpt a child and to go to school. Only the ER allows ilegal immigrants to steal services which RealID could help stop!

    No negatives huh? What about that "government official" that happens to hate Jews, or gays or perhaps even the political party that you happen to be affiliated with that isn't so popular at that moment in time? History shows that abuse can and will take place and is guaranteed to happen.
    What happens now about the government official that hates Jews, gays, or a political party? We have Federal and state laws that prevent discrimination based on numerous criteria. Mostly, they will be voted out of office and/or they could be civilly sued. There is nothing about being required to identify yourself that is in any way affected by your example. I didn't know your sexual preference was proposed to be encoded on RealID.

    All of this ID crap is just a step in direction of total domination. I know what the BOOK says about it...that the government that requires every man woman and child to be instantly identifiable to that government will be the most oppressive government ever know to man.
    A bit paranoid, no? Total domination by our elected government? This is ot Iran, it is the United States. Don't like who is in power then you can vote for different people. The power of the electorate trumps any oppressive government as long as our Republic remains intact. Elections are the ultimate term limit legislation.

    You want that? Its the people that refuse to see it that will allow it to happen,and when it does happen it will be under the guise of "peace and safety".
    Allow what to happen?

    Nothing new there...
    Exactly. The RealID is simply the same information in a more reliable, more secure, more technologically advanced medium. It will help protect America and prevent the foreign attacks that, if successful, may very well impose the oppressive government you so fear.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,894
    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    A bit paranoid, no? Total domination by our elected government? This is ot Iran, it is the United States. Don't like who is in power then you can vote for different people. The power of the electorate trumps any oppressive government as long as our Republic remains intact. Elections are the ultimate term limit legislation.
    There is a thread that has popped up a few times in the last few months about "how long do we have left?" A government that is elected by the majority of the people cannot last indefinitely. There will come a point in any democracy, where the have-not's will vote to place people in power to take the property of the 'have's' for the greater good.

    You can easily say that 'we' elect our officials and that 'we the people' are the government, but what happens when 'we the people' does not represent me, or you anymore?

    Well, I see our government turning into something that does not represent me, or the values that this country was founded on. If my government, or 'the sheeple' turn against me, I do not want that government being able to track me.

    I still pay cash for most purchases, and I have plenty of tin foil.

    If I could see a real value from the real id, I would not oppose it so strongly, but it simply isn't there.

    You said it could help with border security, or to deport those that don't have ID's, but our LEO put people in jail all the time that don't have ID and they are usually released shortly after because Immigration doesn't think it's worth it to 'only' pick up a few people.

    To enhance security, it would have to be completely secure, and not have the ability to be cloned. That lasted all of 2 weeks.

    My bulky wallet with my D.L., credit cards, and SSN, cannot be read remotely. I have to open my wallet and give somebody those cards by choice. With ID that transmits signals, it takes that choice away from me.

    The BG's have the same technology we do, and often can manipulate it before we can. A lot of our current technology is in response to what the BG's do.

    With ID theft already on the rise, I cannot fathom a reason why the gov't would make it easier for criminals to intercept that information.

    As far as your argument about electronic communications, I believe it to be completely without merit. Your argument that it is not my papers or effects because it is in transit would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. If BG1 sends BG2 a letter, can the gov't open that letter w/out a warrant? It is in transit, neither is in possesion...so why is there a difference? Only because we allow there to be. The government is going way to far, and needs to back the heck off. I don't need the gov't to make me safe or to provide food for my table.

    I've never heard of a problem where 'More Government' was the answer.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  16. #45
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,816
    I've never heard of a problem where 'More Government' was the answer.
    obviously, you're not a Democrat...


    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. ... My Brother's Keeper
    By Lewis128 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: October 13th, 2009, 11:43 AM
  2. Gun complaint from brother-in-law
    By dldeuce in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 155
    Last Post: July 19th, 2009, 02:55 PM
  3. Big Brother for G26 Thanks to the Forum
    By SaddleSC in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: May 23rd, 2009, 12:40 PM
  4. Big Brother
    By dukalmighty in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: September 4th, 2008, 09:48 AM
  5. My brother wants a gun
    By Euclidean in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: August 16th, 2005, 07:33 PM

Search tags for this page

dhs form i-872 and inac 2010

,

how did 9/11 affect big brother government security

,

tennessee ddfivers licenmse 46389

,

the patriot microchip is intended to be implanted in terrorists

Click on a term to search for related topics.