Big Brother

This is a discussion on Big Brother within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Kerbouchard The people making 10K-15K are already getting much more in gov't benefits then the 1000-1500 that a 10% tax rate would ...

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  1. #76
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    The people making 10K-15K are already getting much more in gov't benefits then the 1000-1500 that a 10% tax rate would take from them. Between Medicare, Medicaid, free lunch at school, welfare, and food stamps, they get well over $1000 dollars in benefits.

    Yes, it would be better if the money stayed where it was supposed to; in the hands of those that needed it. But to do that, you have to get rid of the entitlements in the first place. Otherwise, our country will fall further and further in dept.

    Sorry for not being more clear, but I was talking about a theoretical world where everyone pays taxes and there are no entitlements.

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  3. #77
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    You're right, the Heller case won't answer all of our questions, but my point was that the Second Amendment isn't as clear as you had said it was or we would like it to be. There are at least two different interpretations that can both be considered correct.
    I don't have any questions about the Second Amendment. I also don't read two different interpretations in the plain language of the Second.

    Frankly, I think the way the Heller case made it to the Court is contrary to the intent of the judicial system. If he couldn't manage to convince the law makers that the law should be changed, he should have carried for his own protection, and if arrested, used the argument in defense.

    Ok, so if we say that everyone must pay taxes to vote, and some people can't/don't pay those taxes, where does that leave us with the 24th?
    If they can't/don't pay their taxes they should be in prison. The 24th was ratified to prevent a specific tax to pay in order to vote.

    But we don't even try to level the playing field and provide an equal opportunity to succeed to everyone. Trust fund babies are the extreme of this example.
    Trust fund babies have the same opportunities as every other American. Do some seem to have a leg up? Yes. But some use their inherited wealth to crash and burn. Others use their name/money/family to secure positions because someone else wants to pay them for the value they bring. We do provide an equal opportunity to succeed in that we do not put up barriers to success.


    I would be hard pressed to say that someone making $10K-$15K a year should give 10% in taxes. I do think there needs to be a cutoff point. At some point, the individual needs the money much more than the goverment does. But these people do still contribute IMO. They work the jobs that we don't want to.
    Ah, the old 'jobs Americans don't want to do argument.'

    There is no point that the individual trumps the whole of society. You may choose not to participate but then you should not expect to take advantage of the services society provides.

    Being poor is not an excuse, it is an incentive to improve. Personally, I'm tired of the victim mentality that pervades the entitlement programs. "Look at poor, poor pitiful me. Give me your money so I can survive. And I will force you at gun point (taxes) by voting for people that will write laws to mandate your giving me your hard earned money. Poor, poor pitiful me." And the poor, poor pitiful me crowd is climbing the ladder so that people who are not poor by any stretch are still taking money from the productive. That is why the have-nots should not be allowed to vote.
    Last edited by SelfDefense; April 8th, 2008 at 08:01 PM. Reason: typos

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Being poor is not an excuse, it is an incentive to improve. Personally, I'm tired of the victim mentality that pervades the entitlement programs. "Look at poor, poor pitiful me. Give me your money so I can survive. And I will force you at gun point (taxes) by voting for people that will write laws to mandate your giving me your hard earned money. Poor, poor pitiful me." And the poor, poor pitiful me crowd is climbing the ladder so that people who are not poor by any stretch are still taking money from the productive. That is why the have-nots should not be allowed to vote.
    Ohh, well, what are we to do about it? It's always been like that...Who are we to change what has always been? Who is John Galt?
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  5. #79
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Ohh, well, what are we to do about it? It's always been like that...Who are we to change what has always been? Who is John Galt?

  6. #80
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Wow, this is quite the thread. Lots of point and counterpoint. Most of which completely misses the point, although somebody hit on it when they said that democracy can't last because of entitlements.

    Eventually there won't be enough net tax payers to support those who don't (military, public teachers, judges, police, elected politicians, etc.)

    Ultimately, no form of gov't can last forever. I highly recommend everyone visit mises.org and read "The Ethics of Liberty" by Murray Rothbard. The government does not have our best interests in mind, indeed, over the long run, it can't possibly.

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  7. #81
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    SD wrote: "As to those who don't pay taxes because they "don't have good paying jobs" my answer is they should absolutely be required to pay taxes. It is an abomination that 50% of Americans pay 97% of the taxes yet everyone takes advantage of the security and services government provides. To each according to their need, from each according to their ability."

    Nice shot SD. Isn't the last sentence Marx? That's one strange quote to justify the meaning of the previous sentence.

    Look, I've no idea if it is true, or propaganda, that 50% of the people pay 97% of the taxes.

    For starters---renters, the folks who can't afford to own a home, pay property taxes albeit indirectly. Poor folks pay sales taxes on practically everything they buy. Details vary by state, but sales taxes fall disproportionately on the poor.

    And payroll taxes, note, I didn't say income taxes---payroll taxes disproportionately hit the poor.

    That "poor old rich guys are getting screwed" argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, they should pay more. They have gained more from society and some of that is due to the infrastructure everyone paid for.

    Anyway, "glad" to see you like to quote Marx to justify your position :--

  8. #82
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Perhaps, just perhaps I can offer some insight into this. However, please bear with me as I am not so elequent with my words as others.

    My first name is Jared and I was born in Febuary of 1983, and I would like it if you would permit me let me speak a bit about my childhood.

    My earliest memory is living in rural PA. We lived in a run down old shack of a house, lacking such amenites as clear drinking water and heat. My father had a job and working 6 days a week at a local auto repair shop. However, that was barely enough just to keep a roof over our heads. Things such as the telephone, and electricity were sporatic at best. Sometimes we had them and sometimes we didn't. Food was mostly covered by our little garden plot/orchard and whatever my father could shoot the night before, wether legal or not. Groundhog and rabbit were very common meals.

    When I was eight years old we moved to West Virginia hoping for a better life, due to the lower cost of living and taxes. As it turned out that hope was in vain. There were just no jobs in WV at the time. So still we ate what we grew and what was killed.

    That remained the same until I was in middle school. Then we moved down to NC in yet another attempt to start over. Here we lived in a trailerpark in a trailer built in the 70's. The roof leaked, there was no heat or ac, the windows would not close, and the floorvents went straight to the ground. Also, if one were not carefull one would recieve an electric shock from the dryer outlet when attempting to enter the bathroom.

    This was the first time in my life I had seen two things, one was neighbors less than half a mile away, and the other was the so called "government assistance". Sure my family recieved the free lunches at school. But things such as foodstamps and welfare were unheard of. Also at this time my parents had seperated and my father refused to pay child support. So my mother attempted to pay all the bills and support 3 children on a $3.75 an hour job working at the local McDonalds.

    Needless to say this did not work out too well, so we were then thrown into the governmental housing, as part of some sort of racial diversity requirement. (we were only whites in the neighborhood).

    The courts, social services and all those nice governmental programs that people claim are there to help the poor did nothing for my family.
    Social Services and the courts had decided not to persue the child support claim based of the suspicison that my mother was making money on the side doing illegal activites. (I will let your collective imaginations figure out what exactly) Instead they merely sent us to charities for clothing and winter coats.

    The free lunch program was mostly permissable for us children. As was the medicaid program. Both would be periodically cut off for "review". This resulted in many missed meals and expensive surprise doctors visits.

    Food stamps were still another matter. By this point my mother was working at a pay rate of 4.16 an hour 30 hours a week at the local warehouse for a grand total of $6,240 per year supporting 3 children without help of anyone else. During the many attempts to aquire food stamps she ran into the same problem again and again. She would go in for the interview, they would see she was white and say something along the lines of " No white person would ever be in this situation if it were not their own fault.", and the application would eventually be denied for some made up reason.

    Now the reason why that is important is because everyone else in the rest of the neighborhood would brag about how much they recieved from the government in welfare monies or foodstamps. Foodstamps were often sold to drug dealers in exchange for either cash or drugs. Cash would go for a 2 to 1 ratio. As in 10 dollars in food stamps would net you 5 dollars in real money. This was no small amount of money either, often the money that would change hands would be several hundred dollars worth per household every month.

    If they were not sold often the food stamps would be used to purchase, steak, premade meals, or even crab legs. If sold for money it would be used at least in part to purchase new designer shoes, or other clothing, music CDs or car assessories. Whatever made you cool.

    Other programs such as the Earned Income Tax Credit were and are an even bigger joke. I can speak from experiance that the majority of people who claim it know exactly down to the very dollar how much they can make before it cuts into that "credit". They would sit outside and talk about how they could only work 4 more days that month before they had to quit, and start going back to selling drugs or working under the table. Or some job gave them a raise so they had to quit because it messed up their numbers.

    That type of mentality was even worse because it extended down to how they treated their children. The most important example I can give is a time when I helped a friend of mine in that neighborhood get passing grades in his classes. Everything was fine until the report card came. I still remember what happened then. The boy was beat for trying to be "Better than his parents, and his people, by being too white" (Direct quote) and then ordered to fight me and win since I was trying to take away his heritage. (This was at the playground in front of all the children and some of the parents.)

    Among other highlights of this great neighborhood.

    was a No-Knock raid a few weeks after a methlab blew up.

    Constant harassment by the police as I walked to school or work for "hanging around such a bad neighborhood." They thought I was purchasing drugs, although in all fairness never was the same officer twice.

    The eventual eviction based off of many politically motivated things. As told to us by the person in charge of such things. (The whole you don't "deserve" to be here thing again.)

    My point, the entire point of this little story is to say this:

    All of you so called champions of the poor. Those who wish to make (in my opinion) themselves feel better, by helping those so called "have nots" by punishing the so called "haves" STOP IT!!


    You know nothing of what it is like to live in that type of situation, you know nothing of the reasons why people end up there. I spent 19 years of my life in that hell, and I can promise you the few paragraphs of text I place upon this forum are nothing but drops in the sea of abuses and horrors I have experianced, that others like me have experianced.

    The fact of the matter is that people stay there because they want to be there. They like it there, and do not want to leave themselves nor their children. Why would they? Why should they? Everything they want is handed to them on silver platters, and all they have to do to keep is is continue to vote for the ******* that keeps handing them all the little goodies. That is right their votes are bought and paid for by your taxdollars.

    Those few who do get out do so by hard work and preseverence. Often they loose all their family and all they know in the process, for they have become the enemy, one of the evil "haves". One of those blacks who want to be white or whatever.

    Government cannot and will not fix this problem, because the problem was caused by the government or at least made worse by it. It is time to face facts, The Great Society has failed, as it was destined to, and we are all paying the price.
    Most if not all of those who live in such "poverty" do so because of their own actions, and nothing short of their own actions will take them out of it. Besides the children, the only victims I see are those who work hard, and pay their taxes to support such people who refuse to fend for themselves. This is the land of opportunity, not handouts. One should have to earn what they have, not be given it by the government.

    Shadow.


    Also I am sure that there are hundreds of statistics that support the opposite , or even the same opinion as mine, and that much smarter and far more schooled men/women can forever debate the subject Noting example after example. All I can say to that is that they do not convey the true situation. Only living it and seeing it can.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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  9. #83
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    Good post Shadow...

    the "government" will do nothing to eliminate "programs" because those people are under their total control.Its a form of enslavement, and only the smart ones that refuse to stay in those programs realize it.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  10. #84
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    awesome post Shadow!
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #85
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    Thanks for sharing, Shadow. Great read, and congrats on not only surviving, but succeeding.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post Shadow...I just disagree with one part

    However, please bear with me as I am not so elequent with my words as others.
    I believe you expressed yourself quite well.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  13. #87
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Shadow, I'm not saying that abuses don't happen, the system is rampant with them, and that part is broken and needs to be fixed. But there are people that truly do need help getting back on their feet, and that is what the system is meant for.

    It sounds like you had a rough life, and it left you bitter about the welfare system. But I have a different experience. I too have "lived it and saw it". An embarrassing part of my past that I rarely talk about is that after my father left my mother with 3 young kids, age 4 and under, and refused to pay child support, we lived on welfare and foodstamps for a while. All of my clothes were hand me downs from my cousins, bought at the salvation army, or homemade.

    But my mother used that welfare check to pay for our home and utilities, and the food stamps and free lunches kept us alive. Without this assistance, I might not be here today.

    Our story has a happy ending though. After a few years of dating, not many guys want a "ready made family", my mother found a man she married and he adopted me and my sisters, and I call him dad, not my biological father, who I didn't see again until after I turned 18, but that's another story. My mother and father both worked hard, and my mother got her real estate license. She now owns her own real estate company and my dad retired. They've been buying and selling land for a few years now, and right now are subdividing 212 acres they bought into .5-1 acre plots. They're doing Ok.

    Maybe that's why I support the system, because I too have seen it first hand. But it helped my family. It worked exactly the way it was supposed to. It kept us alive until we could get back on our feet.

    I know that the system is abused and that needs to stop. Women that are just "baby factories" so they can keep getting the goverenment checks, drug dealers, etc. should be removed from the system. It should have limits. But it does need to stay in some form to help families like mine.

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    I do not know exactly how long ago you went through the system. Perhaps at one point it was better than it is now. I do not know, I just know how it is now, and it is truely beyond repair.

    If you or anyone wants to do actual help to those in the system I would highly reccomend private charities such as the Boys and Girls club,any local church, or other such organization. In general they are far cheaper than anything the government does, and far more effective. Also with the case of the BaGC their main lesson is personal responsibility so the kids learn and are encouraged to get out of there.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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  15. #89
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    I guess the area that you lived in was pretty bad, but the people on welfare are not all like that. Please don't paint the entire group with one brush based on your experiences. I know quite a few people, other than my own family, that were on welfare at one point in time, some recently, and they used it until they could stand on their own. This system is still needed to help people get on their feet.

    Is it abused? Yes, big time. But there are rules for the system that are being ignored by both the cheaters and the case workers that allow them to cheat. I said before that there should be some sort of limit on the system to ensure people don't stay on it forever. That would help.

    Another thing that would help is to prosecute the rule breakers. Taking a support system from those that need it most because of some people that break the law is kind of like disarming the entire country to keep the guns from the criminals...

  16. #90
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Their problem isn't that they want to get on their feet. They are already on their feet and pressing down on our necks. You were on the system for a few years. I was dirt poor for 19 years, and on the system heavily for 6.

    The way you change behavior is to punish the type that one finds unacceptable and reward the type one finds acceptable. Take a long hard look at the current situation, and try to tell me that you do not honestly beleive we are generally rewarding people for not working.

    What exactly would you consider poverty in the United States?

    Because here is an quote of an article on the subject.

    In other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.
    The Wall Street Journal Online - Featured Article

    Basically the rundown of the situation is that the average poor person in the US has a better standard of living than the average middle income person in Europe.


    You have known quite a few people, I have known literally hundreds. I am sorry but just because they are all not the way I have experianced does not mean that too many of them are to fix the problem. Especially when the true problem is the attitude of entitlement and class warfare. Why work hard when you can get it for free?

    Money and welfare cannot fix an attitude. Only hard work and reality can. Governmental welfare is not reality. People need to face the consequences of their actions or they will degrade into what we see now.. Welfare stops that from happening.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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