Big Brother

This is a discussion on Big Brother within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; After this I'll stop. I really can't say it any clearer than this. So once again: Put limits on the system. (eg. You only have ...

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  1. #91
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    After this I'll stop. I really can't say it any clearer than this. So once again:

    Put limits on the system. (eg. You only have 2 years, and then you're done.)
    Prosecute and punish the abusers.

    Once those 2 things are done and enforced, every problem you mentioned goes away.

    Also, think of this. You said you were on the system for 6 years. If so, then if the system wasn't there, you probably would have starved or be dead from lack of health care and would not be here today without that system. I can't believe you are bashing something that kept you alive.

    Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of the criminals is what we argue against here in this forum. Except when it comes to welfare, I guess.

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  3. #92
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    Time limits

    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    I guess the area that you lived in was pretty bad, but the people on welfare are not all like that. Please don't paint the entire group with one brush based on your experiences. I know quite a few people, other than my own family, that were on welfare at one point in time, some recently, and they used it until they could stand on their own. This system is still needed to help people get on their feet.

    Is it abused? Yes, big time. But there are rules for the system that are being ignored by both the cheaters and the case workers that allow them to cheat. I said before that there should be some sort of limit on the system to ensure people don't stay on it forever. .
    In point of fact, the Clinton era "welfare reforms" pushed through by the Republican controlled Congress did put time limits on welfare; especially for males below the age of 50. If I recall correctly, there is a 3 year lifetime limit for males below 50.

    Clinton should have vetoed the welfare reform act. It might have made sense to have a time limit when the economy was chugging. It will create hell if unemployment ever gets back to the Reagan high near 11 %.

    What are people to do if --especially through no fault of their own--- they have exhausted unemployment insurance and the time limit on welfare, and if there simply is little economic activity where they live or anywhere nearby?

    (Oh, I have been very fortunate in my life. Never had to worry about my next meal, or whether there would be a roof over my head, or how to pay for my medical care, or my utilities. I can't imagine the lives lead by the poor people who constantly must deal with these issues. I have no problem paying my taxes to help poor people out. I don't begrudge them. Sure there are some parasites and cheats. Most people are neither. They just lost a job, lack skills, or get paid too little for too much work.)

  4. #93
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    Where is the compassion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsbane View Post
    Their problem isn't that they want to get on their feet. They are already on their feet and pressing down on our necks. You were on the system for a few years. I was dirt poor for 19 years, and on the system heavily for 6.

    The way you change behavior is to punish the type that one finds unacceptable and reward the type one finds acceptable. Take a long hard look at the current situation, and try to tell me that you do not honestly beleive we are generally rewarding people for not working.
    For a dude who was dirt poor for so long, you sure lack compassion for others who might be in the same shoes.

    I don't understand how you can take the positions you are taking unless: a) you aren't telling the truth; b) all those years of deprivation did something to you inside.

    Folks, pay your taxes gratefully. Be glad there is a military to watch over you, a police and fire department to watch over you, and that among the things you pay for are welfare for those least fortunate. Believe me, you don't want to live in a society that abandons its poor.

    If you want to see what a country looks like when it adheres to strict "libertarian" ideals, think of what the US looked like in 1875. You wouldn't want to go back to those days.

  5. #94
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I don't think my Mom ever collected food stamps or welfare, she would have been too embarrassed.

    I do know I never had cable until I was 19, and that was because the USS Nimitz had cable, provided me with a place to sleep, provided food, and gave me a paycheck to boot.

    My parents got divorced when I was pretty young and my Dad had paid pretty much all the bills. My Mom wasn't ready for real life, and she was in her 30's.

    All that said, we had it okay when I grew up. We had electricity most of the time, and when it was off, my Mom tried to get it back on within a few days or her next paycheck.

    There were very few times when I went to sleep without something to eat, but I can't even count the times when all we had was stale bread and peanut butter(the bread Brookshire Brothers would have thrown out, so we could get it for free and peanut butter wasn't that expensive and would last a longtime). For my B-day and Christmas I asked for school supplies and school clothes.

    We bordered on that gray line, where we didn't have money enough for everything we needed, but we had too much money to qualify for assistance.

    When I turned 17 I joined the military. I promised myself that my kids(none yet) would never have to go through what I did. I promised myself that whatever it took, I would provide for my family. The military taught me a trade, taught me responsibility, I earned my degree, and I've never looked back.

    For everybody that says that there 'just aren't any jobs', or 'I can't get training because I can't afford school', or whatever their excuse is, I know of one employer that is still hiring...and they pay pretty well.

    If you don't want the military or can't qualify, there is the job corp, and countless other programs I couldn't qualify for because my mother wouldn't give up and kept working.

    There is a way out, you just have to want it. A lot of these people don't 'want it'. And why should they as long as the gov't will take care of them?

    And one other question, how many people on welfare or gov't assistance have cable? Or the internet? Or the AC running all the time? Or go out to eat? Or smoke? Or drink? Or have 'pimped out' cars with rims and a stereo system?(we didn't have any of these things)

    It's not that these people can't afford to live, it's that they are trying to live above their means and the government enables it.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  6. #95
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Look, I've no idea if it is true, or propaganda, that 50% of the people pay 97% of the taxes.
    Most people are surprised when they learn this fact. It demonstrates that absolute inequity of the tax system.

    For starters---renters, the folks who can't afford to own a home, pay property taxes albeit indirectly. Poor folks pay sales taxes on practically everything they buy. Details vary by state, but sales taxes fall disproportionately on the poor.
    The 97% figure is for Federal taxes. In Arizona, no one pays taxes on food and it is simply wrong to think poor people pay more sales taxes that wealthy people. People with more money spend far more than poor people so they pay most of the sales taxes, too.

    And payroll taxes, note, I didn't say income taxes---payroll taxes disproportionately hit the poor.
    Payroll taxes are income taxes with the entitlement programs social security and medicare included. We have a progressive tax system where the more money you make the higher your tax burden. It is the wealthy, by far, that pays taxes disproportionately. And by wealthy, we are not even talking about Bill Gates, but the normal family.

    That "poor old rich guys are getting screwed" argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, they should pay more. They have gained more from society and some of that is due to the infrastructure everyone paid for.
    For one thing, the infrastructure is paid for by theose who pay taxes, the top 50%. For another, they don't gain from society, they gain from their own hard work and initiative. The sad fact is that there are many people who feel entitled to steal money from the people who actually contribute to society.

    It is bad enough that taxes are far too high and that the burden fall predominantly on the the top 50% of wage earners. But worse, much worse, is that a significant amount of tax money is given to those who simply don't deserve it. Why should I be forced to pay for rent, food, or anything else for someone else? Now, if you (not you, of course) ask me nicely and explain why you need help and what you are doing get out of whatever situation that currently holds you back then I might be willing to help. But to have the government take what is mine and give it to you is known as socialism.

    Anyway, "glad" to see you like to quote Marx to justify your position :--
    The quote justifies nothing. It is simply the goal of socialism.
    Last edited by SelfDefense; April 12th, 2008 at 12:05 AM. Reason: fix quote tags

  7. #96
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Great post, Shadowsbane. Thanks for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsbane View Post
    The fact of the matter is that people stay there because they want to be there. They like it there, and do not want to leave themselves nor their children. Why would they? Why should they? Everything they want is handed to them on silver platters, and all they have to do to keep is is continue to vote for the ******* that keeps handing them all the little goodies. That is right their votes are bought and paid for by your taxdollars.
    Exactly right. That is why the takers should not be allowed to vote.

    The Great Society has failed, as it was destined to, and we are all paying the price.
    FDR and Lyndon Johnson were directly responsible for the welfare state that is currently ruining this nation. Just as FDR's policies lengthened the Great Depression, Johnson's Great Society has ruined the lives of many, both wealthy and poor.

    Most if not all of those who live in such "poverty" do so because of their own actions, and nothing short of their own actions will take them out of it.
    This is spot on and a truth the welfare crowd will never admit.
    Last edited by SelfDefense; April 12th, 2008 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #97
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    After this I'll stop. I really can't say it any clearer than this. So once again:

    Put limits on the system. (eg. You only have 2 years, and then you're done.)
    Prosecute and punish the abusers.

    Once those 2 things are done and enforced, every problem you mentioned goes away.

    Also, think of this. You said you were on the system for 6 years. If so, then if the system wasn't there, you probably would have starved or be dead from lack of health care and would not be here today without that system. I can't believe you are bashing something that kept you alive.

    Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of the criminals is what we argue against here in this forum. Except when it comes to welfare, I guess.
    I agree there should be limits, and the most effective limits would be none. (A possible exception for life saving care)

    If the system were not there, then perhaps they would of been far more vested in forcing my father to pay childsupport? He made 75k a year half of which was under the table. He could of afforded it easily. Instead the system made it easier for them to not enforce the laws.

    Perhaps all the money taken out of my mothers paycheck (and mine as have been working since age 15) could of been used more effectivly?

    Bashing it would be saying things that are not true, but alas it is.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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  9. #98
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsbane View Post
    My earliest memory is living in rural PA. We lived in a run down old shack of a house, lacking such amenites as clear drinking water and heat. My father had a job and working 6 days a week at a local auto repair shop. However, that was barely enough just to keep a roof over our heads. Things such as the telephone, and electricity were sporatic at best. Sometimes we had them and sometimes we didn't. Food was mostly covered by our little garden plot/orchard and whatever my father could shoot the night before, wether legal or not. Groundhog and rabbit were very common meals.

    When I was eight years old we moved to West Virginia hoping for a better life, due to the lower cost of living and taxes. As it turned out that hope was in vain. There were just no jobs in WV at the time. So still we ate what we grew and what was killed.

    That remained the same until I was in middle school. Then we moved down to NC in yet another attempt to start over. Here we lived in a trailerpark in a trailer built in the 70's. The roof leaked, there was no heat or ac, the windows would not close, and the floorvents went straight to the ground. Also, if one were not carefull one would recieve an electric shock from the dryer outlet when attempting to enter the bathroom.

    This was the first time in my life I had seen two things, one was neighbors less than half a mile away, and the other was the so called "government assistance". Sure my family recieved the free lunches at school. But things such as foodstamps and welfare were unheard of. Also at this time my parents had seperated and my father refused to pay child support. So my mother attempted to pay all the bills and support 3 children on a $3.75 an hour job working at the local McDonalds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsbane View Post
    If the system were not there, then perhaps they would of been far more vested in forcing my father to pay childsupport? He made 75k a year half of which was under the table. He could of afforded it easily. Instead the system made it easier for them to not enforce the laws.
    I didn't want to keep posting in here, but could you please clarify a few things for me?

    The part in bold where your parents separated, I'm assuming that everything written before that your parents were together?

    Did your father start making $75K a year immediately after your parents split? That is quite a raise. Because the first story, you made it seem like your father was as broke as the rest of your family. If he was making that much, I agree, there was no need for you to be on welfare. He should have paid child support.

    If it took him a while to get to $75K a year, and you as a family were as broke as you originally said, then you and your mom needed the welfare.

    What I said held true for your original story. I can only make the debate for the story you tell me. But then you changed the story and now your dad was making $75K/year, it changes what I would have said, and your whole story.

  10. #99
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    For a dude who was dirt poor for so long, you sure lack compassion for others who might be in the same shoes.

    I don't understand how you can take the positions you are taking unless: a) you aren't telling the truth; b) all those years of deprivation did something to you inside.

    Folks, pay your taxes gratefully. Be glad there is a military to watch over you, a police and fire department to watch over you, and that among the things you pay for are welfare for those least fortunate. Believe me, you don't want to live in a society that abandons its poor.

    If you want to see what a country looks like when it adheres to strict "libertarian" ideals, think of what the US looked like in 1875. You wouldn't want to go back to those days.
    1)Those who choose to stay in that position are not in my shoes. People in my shoes get their collective butts out of there.

    2)Hopyard here is the main difference between you and I. You are opperating completly on theory, and I practice and experience. Because of that your little statements labeled a, and b, have no signifigance for they are made from a position of ignorance.

    For you know nothing about me outside of what I have shared on this forum or possibly others we may both attend.

    You seem to imply that the only way to help the poor is through governmental assistance. My stance is that Governmental welfare is a detriment to the poor. It is a fist full of money and a get out of my face except on election day.

    For you to imply that the poor are "unfortunate" shows a complete misunderstanding of even the basic concepts of free market economics. They are not "unfortunate" they are just suffering the consequences of either their actions for their parents. Just as the so called "fortunate" are suffering the consquences of their actions. Which is a much higher amount of taxes and to be reviled by the lazy.

    A doctor isn't more fortunate than a cashier at McDonalds just because he makes 100k a year or more than the other guy. They just put in more work and effort into finding a marketable job skill. The cashier just filled out an application.

    As to questioning my compassion, if I may ask you. Besides paying your taxes, how do you and your family help the poor?

    Personally I donate money to charities, I donate food, time and effort. My wife works with the Boys and Girls Club, and with the Easter Seals, this is while attending college full time mind you. (my wife not I)

    Our goal is to start our own self sufficient outreach organization that teaches personal responsibility and basic job skills while linking it with area businesses and charities willing to take part.

    Personally I would gladly go back to a government like it was in 1875, one where freedom was more than just an ideal, and the government was slow to act upon private matters.

    Just remember the freedom to prosper must come with the freedom to fail. Without one the other cannot exist.

    You are free to give money to whoever you wish, and you are free to ask me to do the same. However, you personally cannot force me to do the same. But, the government can, and does. Everything a government does, any government, is done by the end of a gun. You cannot rob me directly so you have them do it in your place under the guise of charity. Much like the mob forces people to pay "protection money".
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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  11. #100
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    I didn't want to keep posting in here, but could you please clarify a few things for me?

    The part in bold where your parents separated, I'm assuming that everything written before that your parents were together?

    Did your father start making $75K a year immediately after your parents split? That is quite a raise. Because the first story, you made it seem like your father was as broke as the rest of your family. If he was making that much, I agree, there was no need for you to be on welfare. He should have paid child support.

    If it took him a while to get to $75K a year, and you as a family were as broke as you originally said, then you and your mom needed the welfare.

    What I said held true for your original story. I can only make the debate for the story you tell me. But then you changed the story and now your dad was making $75K/year, it changes what I would have said, and your whole story.

    Parents seperated when I was living in WV, got back together for about 3 months when we moved to Raleigh and then seperated again permanently. While I was in the 4th grade. During that time he moved to Raleigh NC and gained a job making aournd $18 an hour (about 36k yearly) (by this time he was a master mechanic for gasoline/diesel engines and a professional welder) On top of that he had a 2 side businesses. 1 fixing cars and building racers netting him on average $500 a week (roughly 25k) under the table, and the rest was selling some drugs/scrapping metal.

    All of that was after the seperation/ divorce. To be honest I am not privy as to what the change in him was. Perhaps it was the location (moved back to hometown) perhaps it was something else. I just know that for a long time he was a loving father, and didn't make much while my parents were together, and was a neglectfull nonexistent, better off father afterwards.

    I am sorry for leaving all the little details out like that, as it can create such a problem with continuity.

    If you really really want I can explain all the little details that include such things as poligamy, federal kidnapping charges, and child abuse that all happened during that time to give you a far clearer picture. But I would rather handle all that through PM as that is not the topic of this thread.

    ETA: It is very good that you picked up on that, and responded. Too many people refuse to ask about such things, and instead allow mis-conceptions to run rampant.
    Last edited by Shadowsbane; April 12th, 2008 at 02:34 AM. Reason: Extra comment towards response.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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