Church Carry by LEO in Uniform
This is a discussion on Church Carry by LEO in Uniform within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I can understand where everyone is coming from, but to me, my denomination means more to me than carrying. If I were an officer, I ...
April 15th, 2008 03:49 PM
I can understand where everyone is coming from, but to me, my denomination means more to me than carrying. If I were an officer, I would consider finding another church within the same denomination that had less morons attending. Either that, or realize that carrying in uniform as a LEO is not illegal in any sense at church, and continue to do so, against some parishioner's desire.
April 15th, 2008 04:30 PM
I don't think it will ever occur again. He doesn't normally have to chose to go in Uniform and if a choice was to be taken it would probably be not to go in uniform. This was an isolated situation that where he was sort of forced to end up going in Uniform. And perhaps the first time anyone at this Church had dealt with the situation I guess. However he has and probably will continue to concealed carry there.
It appears it was the open display of a gun, even by someone in uniform, that set this person off. Perhaps it was the "higher ups" that then failed to bother to think about what they were saying and think it through that were in the wrong here by perpetuating the situation rather than nipping it in the butt. I suspect a little of both. Perhaps they just didn't think it through all the way before reacting. I would hope that they would think twice. Its likely not to happen again but it is the principal of the thing now. I mean they should be encouraging it rather than discouraging it. Now a days...
Sheep... are almost always Sheep until the Wolf almost gets them. Then they pray for the Guard Dog to save them. Then, hopefully, they become Guard Dogs once they have seen reality. There is always that hope that something good can come of this really... Rather than continued denial.
It isn't really that surprising for one member to be this way. Particularly if no other LEO has happened to have to attend a service in Uniform. Out of the many hundred or so there has to be at least one of them... right?
This would be a great opportunity to go into a discussion of how self defense is Christian and how Jesus encouraged self defense... and to talk about the recent incidents involving churches. It could be a blessing in disguise. If one wants to be optimistic about it all
April 15th, 2008 04:53 PM
I suggest that my reaction would depend on what is meant by "Church higher ups."
Originally Posted by cphilip
If they were clearly in a position to speak FOR the Church, see other answers above and move to a Church that welcomes LEO and/or accepts RKBA as compatible with their faith.
If not, I would call them out on their lack of authority to speak for the Church and start a dialogue on the Churches position on support of LEOs and RKBA. Cornered Cats' write-up on "Ethical Questions" [see: ]Cornered Cat - Table of Contents would be a good jumping off place.
Last edited by DaveH; April 15th, 2008 at 11:27 PM.
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
April 15th, 2008 05:23 PM
BE PREPARED - Noah didn't build the Ark when it was raining!
Si vis pacem, para bellum
NRA Life Member
April 15th, 2008 06:31 PM
I called them "church higher ups" just because I don't know their positions or titles. He does but I don't.
I am sure they will know... and yet you know that what they can't see won't hurt them right? How crazy is that going to be...
April 15th, 2008 06:39 PM
Must have been some hard core Liberal Sheep to complain about an officer in uniform carrying a gun. What do they expect - that he should take off part of his uniform just to join them.
Its a shame that youth is wasted on the young.
April 15th, 2008 08:24 PM
In my experience someone who has such an adverse reaction (opinion) is probably up to something or has had a bad encounter with police. Seeing an armed police officer or security officer makes those guilty of something (even if it is only in their minds) nervous. Some folks who have not done anything wrong think they have and feel guilty for whatever reason even though they aren't. But at the same time some of the most heinous criminals have been caught on small stuff. I think a vehicle safety and sobriety check point a block away from the church may be in order at sometime in the distant future (3 - 6 months).
April 16th, 2008 06:45 AM
We have a police officer who attends our church, has been there in uniform (armed) a couple times, and nobody had a problem with that at all. It appears that at least some of the congregation of the church in question do not understand that no one operates in authority except as allowed by God. A LEO operates under this God-given authority, as commissioned by the state. His work is actually a ministry. Those sheep in that congregation would holler even louder if something happened and the officer did not act, even if off duty.
April 16th, 2008 07:06 AM
I've been to church in uniform several times. I've never got any reaction other than a "thanks for your service". The few short times I stood behind the pulpit in uniform,armed, I never got a negative comment.
I guess alot of it depends on where you are at.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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April 16th, 2008 08:33 AM
I wish all LEOs went to church - in or out of uniform, but always armed.
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson
April 16th, 2008 08:49 AM
We have an armed, uniformed officer at every service for security reasons. There are 2-3 officers that rotate doing it, and every one of them is treated as part of the family by the congregation.
And then there are those of us on the unofficial, covert security team.
Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1
Si vis pacem, para bellum
April 16th, 2008 09:46 AM
A few points:
Well... the next day he gets a call from a couple of the Church higher ups that someone in the Congregation had felt uncomfortable there being a weapon in church ...
- There are almost certainly always a few weapons in church, whether this honorable man was carrying or not.
- People are slaughtered in all sorts of places while failing to prepare for what comes, including at churches.
- The very lives and well-being of our loved ones should be what we most value on this earth, else what's the point?
- This policeman was not a criminal. Quite the opposite, in fact, wearing his honor on his arm for all to see.
- Anyone may have an opinion. Merely voicing it doesn't make it valid or have a basis of legitimacy for altering policy.
- If policy is changed and enforced based on this one offended person's gripe, then people may well have nothing to do but pray in a situation where a deadly problem arises at their church and the upstanding, honorable people have all been previously disarmed.
- Remember that He helps those who help themselves. The flipside is that He often doesn't see those who sit idly by, twiddling the thumbs while "Rome" burns. Such is life. Call it what you will, but Jeanne Assam and others helped save lives not too long ago, by doing just that, for her congregation.
It's hard to believe how P.C. concerns that have no justification can hold any weight. We see it everywhere, but it still asounds me. Short-sighted thinking like this can, in this modern "civilized" world, get people killed.
A brain is a terrible thing to waste.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
April 18th, 2008 08:09 PM
Police are exept here in virginia from those laws in uniform or not. I would find a new church
April 19th, 2008 02:09 AM
I have been reading this thread for awhile and was trying to stay somewhat out of the loop here (having been the LEO that cphilip is referring to). But, I feel like I should share my two-cents. As much as it has angered and upset me that someone whom is supposedly part of my "church family" would say something so insensitive about me open carrying, in uniform, at Church when I was coming there to support my wife; for my fledgling family, our answer is not to change churches. My wife and I believe strongly in the denomination we belong to and I, personally, would not want to let some gun-sensitive liberal win by running me out of a church that we so whole heartedly believe in.
On another note, I do appreciate the support that has been expressed on this topic and want to say thank you. The sheep may choose to be sheep, but my wife and I will continue to prepare ourselves to be guard dogs (my wife is a CWP holder). While they will not allow her to carry in church, I will continue to take those steps to protect myself and my family... as well as those I attend church with. The two "higher ups" (the Bishop's two counselors), are the ones who confronted me about the situation and, honestly, I think they are hiding their disdain for guns behind a complaint from someone else.
I contacted the Bishop this week (since he was out of town when the event happened) and explained the situation to him, and he sent me the following exert from the church handbook:
And he elaborated:
On page 182 of the new Handbook of Instructions, under the heading of Firearms, it states:
"Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and are havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within the walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law."
While I do not totally agree with this policy (as I believe that CWP holders should be allowed to carry as well), I believe the Bishop has fallen on the LEO side of things. The interesting thing to see will be whether he steps up and addresses this issue with the congregation so that, if I had to come in uniform again, it would not be an issue. However, if they do try and disarm me again, through whatever means, I will again declare that state law prevents them from doing so and my wife and I will attempt to transfer to another ward. I will not become a sheep and, I believe, my wife will not let me.
Therefore, a duly sworn officer of the law is allowed to carry a lethal weapon in church, if required by his jurisdiction, either on-duty or off. I do understand this is a sensitive subject to individuals on both sides of the 2nd amendment issue but we as a people believe in following the laws of the land. I also realize there are individuals in our congregation that the mere thought or sight of a firearm violates their sense of sensibility.
Again, thanks for all of your support and any further would be appreciated. I will be letting my Bishop know on Sunday that quite an outcry was caused, both here and with some members at Church (I have actually had several people tell me they appreciate the fact that I am willing to protect them and carry in church).
April 19th, 2008 02:18 AM
I guess that settles it then; sccaleb, I think the way you have handled it was the smart way to go, I hope it all works out for you.
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