Tables are Turned on a LEO - Page 3

Tables are Turned on a LEO

This is a discussion on Tables are Turned on a LEO within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'll try and answer one by one... Originally Posted by Holdcard OK, maybe someone can fill me in. Where I get confused is when is ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 59

Thread: Tables are Turned on a LEO

  1. #31
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,936
    I'll try and answer one by one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    OK, maybe someone can fill me in. Where I get confused is when is an officer ON or OFF duty. Some say they are always on duty, others say if they are not on duty they will simply be a good witness and not interfere. The on and off duty reasoning seems to be whichever vindicates the officer in any given situation. So, which is it?

    I am on duty during my working hours, no matter if I'm eating or on the jon. The always "on duty" thing comes from being expected to respond if a crime or emergency happens in my presence, and I am always subject to a call out. If its my day off, something big would have to happen for a regular officer to get called in, but it does happen and this varies from dept. to dept., I'm just speaking in very general terms.

    If I'm on a break, I'm not working. How does that work for LEO? If you're on a break won't you be the last to be called upon? (unless you're the only cop in a one cop town).

    We dont get regular breaks like normal jobs do. Do you really think I'm going to sit there and finish my ice cream cone while someone is calling for help? Yes, we do take lunch breaks, and other officers cover for us for routine calls, but if it hits the fan, we are expected to go no matter if we are in mid bite of a Big Mac.

    How would that work for anyone who is NOT a LEO? If I park in a loading zone on my break, even if I am just in there long enough to run in and get my order, I should get a ticket, it's against the law isn't it? If one of you officers were issuing me a ticket how would you react if I gave you that excuse? Would that be a valid reason for breaking the law? Would that be grounds enough for you to not issue the ticket?

    The first part of your question is evident if one reads my first answers to your post, reads the thread or just thinks about it on their own. Would the officer issue you a ticket for doing the same? Maybe, Maybe not. Depends on a huge set circumstances... Officer discretion is a beautiful thing.

    Please note, I'm not trying to pick a fight or bash anyone, I'm trying to understand why the law is so different for those that enforce it, and I really don't understand this on and off duty thing.

    Thanks for helping me understand this kind of stuff. I try to keep an open mind, and admittedly I'm not a LEO. I never have been. I've learned a lot from these kind of threads, there is a lot of things I don't understand or don't even think of because I'm not in law enforcement.

    Holdcard
    Much of what an LEO does is in a gray area... this is just one example. I always tell recruits coming in that the public views a uniform much like an actor on a stage. You are on stage with the public staring at you everytime you put that uniform on. The public rarely can understand what we do and why we do it, they only see the superficial parts and draw conclusions from there... much like actors on a stage.
    So, if you have no justification for doing something that is going to ruffle some feathers of an ignorant public, dont do it. Park in a space, and everybody is happy.
    "Just blame Sixto"


  2. #32
    DC Founder
    Array Bumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    20,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    OK, maybe someone can fill me in. Where I get confused is when is an officer ON or OFF duty. Some say they are always on duty, others say if they are not on duty they will simply be a good witness and not interfere. The on and off duty reasoning seems to be whichever vindicates the officer in any given situation. So, which is it?

    If I'm on a break, I'm not working. How does that work for LEO? If you're on a break won't you be the last to be called upon? (unless you're the only cop in a one cop town).

    How would that work for anyone who is NOT a LEO? If I park in a loading zone on my break, even if I am just in there long enough to run in and get my order, I should get a ticket, it's against the law isn't it? If one of you officers were issuing me a ticket how would you react if I gave you that excuse? Would that be a valid reason for breaking the law? Would that be grounds enough for you to not issue the ticket?

    Please note, I'm not trying to pick a fight or bash anyone, I'm trying to understand why the law is so different for those that enforce it, and I really don't understand this on and off duty thing.

    Thanks for helping me understand this kind of stuff. I try to keep an open mind, and admittedly I'm not a LEO. I never have been. I've learned a lot from these kind of threads, there is a lot of things I don't understand or don't even think of because I'm not in law enforcement.
    This may vary by department, but I cannot tell you how many times the average officer has, in the middle of lunch or dinner, had to leave the meal to go answer a call. When I was a reserve officer in Denver, you were considered to be on duty your complete shift. It didn't matter what you were doing when a call came in; you simply stopped and went on the call....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    3,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
    This may vary by department, but I cannot tell you how many times the average officer has, in the middle of lunch or dinner, had to leave the meal to go answer a call. When I was a reserve officer in Denver, you were considered to be on duty your complete shift. It didn't matter what you were doing when a call came in; you simply stopped and went on the call....
    Oh so true. 5 years later and I still catch myself wolfing down my food sometimes, for fear of having to eat it cold. French Fries do not age well.
    Spend few minutes learning about my journey from Zero to Athlete in this
    Then check out my blog! www.BodyByMcDonalds.com

    Cupcake - 100 pound loser, adventurer, Ironman Triathlete.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,087
    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    And if your logic is that there is no need to be in a hurry in an emergency, then they shouldn't bother with the lights or siren...just sit in traffic... BTW, do you have any idea how many drive thrus have no escape once you're in them?
    I never said there wasn't a need for hurry. Please don't add stuff to my statements. If the difference between running 20 yards to the car is life and death then they shouldn't be inside to begin with. I'm only following the logic of your initial assertion that this is important to save lives.

    If they need to be readily accessible to emergencies then there is no reason they should be inside eating. If you would re-read my post you will also notice that I said drive thrus with no traffic. I specified because it's so important that they can respond in emergencies that they get to avoid all parking rules to sit down and eat.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Mid-Hudson Valley New York State
    Posts
    4,207
    Ok, so I started this thread this morning, and I am amazed by the amount of diversity in the posts. I thought I would finally add my two cents to the mix.

    Firstly, I do think that everyone (that also reduntantly includes LEO's, politicians, emergency responders, etc.) should be held to the same legal standards. If a law is broken, then pay the penalty, or democratically change the law.

    Also, I believe a law was broken... if I had parked there and he drove by, I would have gotten a summons.

    That said, I must also say that there should be reasonable exceptions, based on individual circumstances. In this particular case, I would cut the LEO some slack. LEO's, firefighters, ESW's are out there to help us 24/7, sometimes putting their lives on the line.

    In this particular case, the LEO was not taking up someone else's spot, was not in a handicap spot, and was also near to his vehicle in case of emergency. So, my feeling is, this time, give him a break!

    There, I'm done!
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  6. #36
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,936
    but he didnt break the law... thats the fundemental problem with the whole story.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #37
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,498
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    but he didnt break the law... thats the fundemental problem with the whole story.

    Sixto,

    I think he did break the law in Portland, because

    The firelane is for Emergency use only NOT Emergency Vehicles only.

    Atleast I think that is what the lawyer said
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  8. #38
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,936
    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Sixto,

    I think he did break the law in Portland, because

    The firelane is for Emergency use only NOT Emergency Vehicles only.

    Atleast I think that is what the lawyer said
    Yeah, thats what the lawyer with an axe to grind said... the same lawyer that wrote the ticket. The guy who actually enforces the law and writes tickets in Portland for a living says otherwise.

    My take is this... its a unloading/loading zone, so parking is permitted there if you are making a delivery or picking something up. If you are not doing that and park there for a period of time, you are then in violation of the parking ordinance. I don’t know for certain about Portland, but every local parking section I've ever seen has exceptions for working L.E. or fire apparatus.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Mid-Hudson Valley New York State
    Posts
    4,207
    SIXTO, if I had parked there, and he drove by, I would have probably gotten a summons. If I did something like that in NY City, I would have been towed away immediately. That said, I do agree with your general premise (see my post #35 above).
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  10. #40
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,498
    Sixto

    Most places I see are the firelanes are for Emergency Vehicles only, not just emergencies.

    I agree that the lawyer is a

    I never see a problem with short term parking in a loading zone, that's what they are for.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, Az.
    Posts
    531
    Thanks for taking the time to respond. I did get some clarification. I'll admit that I still don't feel that I have a firm grasp on it, but I'm more comfortable with it now.

    I have a tendency to look at things in a totalitarian way, it's either right or wrong. I understand there are different circumstances that may make it right for one (LEO) and wrong for another (civilian).

    I was hoping to get an answer before the thread got shut down. I wish these topics wouldn't spark such an emotional response. I have a lot of questions, many I don't dive into because I'm pretty sure it will result in arguments and closed threads.

    Terminology and the difference in departmental procedure probably plays the biggest part in my confusion. For me, a break is off duty and I've heard LEO's say the same thing. Everyone not being on the same page doesn't help.

    Thanks again,

    Hold card
    If You Want To POPULATE Heaven
    You Have To PLUNDER Hell!!

    4th Man Ministries

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    Terminology and the difference in departmental procedure probably plays the biggest part in my confusion. For me, a break is off duty and I've heard LEO's say the same thing. Everyone not being on the same page doesn't help.

    Thanks again,

    Hold card
    A LEO is never "truly" off-duty during his or her shift. They might be the last officers called by dispatch because they are on lunch, but if someone happens that requires an all-hands response, they will be called.

    From the OP, it definitely sounds like the lawyer has a BIG axe to grind with the PD. Maybe he lost a case because of testimony from officers in that PD, OMO.

    As a sidenote, is it legal for civilians to issue tickets in OR or do they just make complaints? If civilians CAN issue tickets, what exists to stop people from making things up just because they don't like the person?
    Last edited by mulle46; April 22nd, 2008 at 08:18 PM.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #43
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,843
    Let's stir the pot a little more...
    I think that there is some privilege that goes with some jobs. I like the idea of a cop car in the neighborhood, near the stores, etc. If the cop, who is in uniform and on the job, parks temporarily in a 'no parking' zone, I don't have a problem with that.
    But he's getting his lunch...so what!

    As a school administrator, I had a parking space in front of the main office, everyone else had to park in the lot. Other employees came in the morning and left at the end of the day. I left and returned often, working on problems all over the district. Rain, snow, or sun...I was back and forth in my car many times in a day...the parking place made my many trips a little more convenient...end of story. You want the parking place? Apply for the job!

    You want to park in a 'no parking zone'?...apply for the job...put your life on the line and you get the perk...
    All jobs have their 'perks'...I'm sure that that attorney has some special 'perks', too!

    Of course, OMO...
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  14. #44
    VIP Member
    Array falcon1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,484
    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Let's stir the pot a little more...
    I think that there is some privilege that goes with some jobs. I like the idea of a cop car in the neighborhood, near the stores, etc. If the cop, who is in uniform and on the job, parks temporarily in a 'no parking' zone, I don't have a problem with that.
    But he's getting his lunch...so what!

    As a school administrator, I had a parking space in front of the main office, everyone else had to park in the lot. Other employees came in the morning and left at the end of the day. I left and returned often, working on problems all over the district. Rain, snow, or sun...I was back and forth in my car many times in a day...the parking place made my many trips a little more convenient...end of story. You want the parking place? Apply for the job!

    You want to park in a 'no parking zone'?...apply for the job...put your life on the line and you get the perk...
    All jobs have their 'perks'...I'm sure that that attorney has some special 'perks', too!

    Of course, OMO...
    I understand your reasoning, and I do not disagree...RHIP, after all. That said, I still find the notion a little unsettling, however, of anyone (especially those charged with enforcing the law) displaying even the appearance of the attitude that "laws are for other people," no matter how justified the attitude may seem or how small the infraction may appear--for I fear that slope is very slippery.

    I am most definitely not (and I hope I am not coming across as) trying to bash law enforcement, and I am certainly not belittling the risks that they and all public-safety employees face each day for all of us, often with no thanks, but instead being much maligned. (I also agree with an earlier poster who opined that the attorney must really have an axe to grind.)

    But I'm still unsettled by it. YMMV, of course.

  15. #45
    Senior Member
    Array StevePVB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    1,071
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK, I'll spout off and stir the pot a little,

    Although I agree that an officer should not park in fire lanes etc becaue it does look bad, and it does set a bad example, the officer did nothing illegal. An on duty, in service officer in a patrol car is exempt for the very reason the assistant chief spoke about in the video.
    I do get on the Jr. guys all the time when I see them do this for no good reason.

    Also, the fire lane is there in case of a fire, so the fire dept can get there equipment in wherever they need to put it. With that said answer these questions;

    Who is going to know about a fire or medical emergency first?
    Who is always on scene first anyway?
    Where would they park if an emergency was to occur?
    Who can move the car far more quickly than the average Joe being lazy?
    In the very unlikely event that the fire department needs the car moved before the officer can get to it, they will move it (I've seen them do it!) The car will be damaged... but who is paying the bill for the damaged car? *** Dont tell me the tax payers, while that is true to an extent, I dont want do give a civics and budget lesson too***
    I'm confused on this one. No questions or disagreements with all but the last paragraph. It seems to me there are only two possibilities. Either the taxpayer or the officer pays. I have to believe it is the taxpayer (as it should be). What am I missing?

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Robbery Victim Turns The Tables
    By CT-Mike in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: February 10th, 2008, 08:28 PM
  2. Good Guy turned the tables
    By CT-Mike in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 10th, 2007, 08:17 AM
  3. Victim turns the tables
    By CT-Mike in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: November 27th, 2007, 03:12 AM
  4. Would be Victim turns tables on Robber..
    By sui-juris in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: July 25th, 2007, 10:25 AM
  5. 84 year old turns tables on robbers
    By Scott in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: January 13th, 2005, 03:38 AM

Search tags for this page

oregon police officer is facing a stiff fine

Click on a term to search for related topics.