Tables are Turned on a LEO

This is a discussion on Tables are Turned on a LEO within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by StevePVB I'm confused on this one. ........ Either the taxpayer or the officer pays. I have to believe it is the taxpayer ...

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Thread: Tables are Turned on a LEO

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    I'm confused on this one. ........ Either the taxpayer or the officer pays. I have to believe it is the taxpayer (as it should be). What am I missing?

    Yes, I also am confused. As a tax payer, my property taxes (which have increased five-fold in the past 20 years) are the primary source of funding for my local police department, fire, DPW and education.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

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  3. #47
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    I'll explain when I have the time... its rather simple, yet it will take some time to break it all down what I mean.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    I'm confused on this one. No questions or disagreements with all but the last paragraph. It seems to me there are only two possibilities. Either the taxpayer or the officer pays. I have to believe it is the taxpayer (as it should be). What am I missing?
    I was confused on this as well. I can understand saying it's not all the taxpayer, but I would think the rest was citizen funded as well.

    You have your local, state, and federal funding, that is all from taxpayers, even the special grants and subsidies. Anything coming from any level of government should be considered as coming from taxpayers. The government doesn't make a lot of money from sources other than taxes.

    Then you would have the fund raisers, donations, policeman's balls, fines and fees paid, etc., and that would not be considered taxpayer funding, but citizen funding. It's not really the same thing, but I could understand someone thinking it was.

    Is there some other source for funding that I am not aware of? And if so, how does it differentiate from taxpayer and citizen funding? At this time, I can't think of any other source.

    I am eagerly awaiting Sixto's explanation.

  5. #49
    Member Array ultra45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    I agree that anyone in authority should hold themselves to a higher standard. It's sad that most people who are in authority do not.

    I think as LEO they should want to uphold the law as well as enforce it. The chief's response just made me boil. If I got ticketed for such an offense I doubt the judge would accept the inconvenience of finding a "legal" parking spot.

    I have no problem with LEO parking wherever necessary to do their jobs, when not on duty (lunches, breaks, etc.) they should at the very least have to obey the laws they enforce.

    People tend to think I have a problem with LEO. I don't think that's the case, I have a problem with double standards, and abuse of authority.

    Holdcard
    Please give me a break. That officer had every right to park where he did. He was ON DUTY in a MARKED patrol car. Whether responding to a call or picking up lunch, he is ON DUTY and may need to respond immediately. He should not have to go out of his way to get to his cruiser, should he need to in an emergency. He does not have the luxury to finish his meal and then respond to a call.

    It is true some in authority over step their bounds, but in this case the officer did no wrong.

    Rant Over...

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Your points are well taken but it doesn't do well to insult someone just because they happen to disagree with your point of view. IMHO, your arguments carry less merit when they are accompanied by such remarks.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  7. #51
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    For the confused;

    OK, here is a clip of what I said that caused some questions, the most important part is in bold now.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    The car will be damaged... but who is paying the bill for the damaged car? *** Dont tell me the tax payers, while that is true...
    Here is what I meant and why I said it;

    (I know I'm being over simplistic and elementary, but stick with me here)

    The citizens fund most of the cities expenditures through taxes. Let say the city collects $XXXXXXXX. a year from taxes and other revenue.

    The city splits all that out to the varies expenses like the fire dept., public works, police etc.

    The city gives the Police dept. $XXXX. to do whatever they need to do. Salaries, uniforms, equipment, training and vehicles are the biggest money eaters in a police department.
    Lets say the P.D. purchases new cars on a two year rotation, so they budget 60K in order to purchase two new cruisers every year. That 60k is all they get in their budget for vehicles, there is no magic government money tree.

    So Officer Sixto goes out and smashes up a one year old car, now the PD has a choice to make. They can repair the car or total it... either way the loss is coming out of the vehicle budget that doesn't grow magically because there is more need than planned for.

    Because Officer Sixto crashed a car doesn't mean the tax collector is coming to everyones door to collect more funds to repair/replace the car. If your taxes do rise in the following years, its because the public at large felt there was a need to raise taxes.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Sixto, I expected/knew that. I thought from your previous comment that you were saying that a portion of the money that the PD uses doesn't come from taxpayers. I know that it isn't all from taxpayers, but I would think that the rest comes from other "citizen sources".

    I guess I misinterpreted your original post. Sorry.

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    Sixto, I expected/knew that. I thought from your previous comment that you were saying that a portion of the money that the PD uses doesn't come from taxpayers. I know that it isn't all from taxpayers, but I would think that the rest comes from other "citizen sources".

    I guess I misinterpreted your original post. Sorry.
    Sometimes it does...I forgot to mention that part in my other post. A lot of a municipalities money comes from services provided such as trash collection, water/sewage, investments and those sorts of things. It often doesnt come from just taxes.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #54
    Member Array ultra45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    . Your points are well taken but it doesn't do well to insult someone just because they happen to disagree with your point of view. IMHO, your arguments carry less merit when they are accompanied by such remarks.
    Chevy, my "Please Give Me A Break" wasn't intended to insult, sorry if it appeared that way. It was borne more out of frustration and not necessarily directed to the poster I answered to. Although the police can sometimes be their own worst enemy, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt in most cases. There are good and bad in all walks of life, cops just get more attention, as the job they do (enforce our laws) or the way they go about it is always under the microscope.

    Again, sorry if I let off with both barrels, just my style, not my intent.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    The citizens fund most of the cities expenditures through taxes. Let say the city collects $XXXXXXXX. a year from taxes and other revenue.......

    If your taxes do rise in the following years, its because the public at large felt there was a need to raise taxes.
    Part 1 - yes, yes, I think we all agree, but your "civics and budget lesson" statement made it sounds like there was some financial magic going on.

    Part 2 - I think the public at large rarely feels a true NEED to raise taxes. The scenario (in my town) typically goes like this -
    * public employee union(s) want 6% increase (would settle for 5%)
    * union reps are clever, experienced negotiators, so they ask for 11%
    * they pressure town administrator and council relentlessly
    * much hand-wringing and vociferous debate ensues
    * taxpayers are assured they are being well represented
    * process is completed with virtually no allowable contribution from taxpayers
    * budget is passed with the "compromise" 5% increase
    * congratulations are handed out on both sides
    * the 5% increase is included in budget and tax bills revised (upwards)

    And so it goes, up and up and up..........................
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Part 1 - yes, yes, I think we all agree, but your "civics and budget lesson" statement made it sounds like there was some financial magic going on.

    Part 2 - I think the public at large rarely feels a true NEED to raise taxes. The scenario (in my town) typically goes like this -
    * public employee union(s) want 6% increase (would settle for 5%)
    * union reps are clever, experienced negotiators, so they ask for 11%
    * they pressure town administrator and council relentlessly
    * much hand-wringing and vociferous debate ensues
    * taxpayers are assured they are being well represented
    * process is completed with virtually no allowable contribution from taxpayers
    * budget is passed with the "compromise" 5% increase
    * congratulations are handed out on both sides
    * the 5% increase is included in budget and tax bills revised (upwards)

    And so it goes, up and up and up..........................
    No, no magic going on... but public finance is slightly more dynamic than simple citizen pays taxs to the government.

    So then how does it go up? The public allows this to happen.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    ........So then how does it go up? The public allows this to happen.
    What choice do we have? The voting public (in my municipality) has absolutely no control over the negotiation process, nor can we vote on the general budget. Voting on things like payroll and benefits are exclusively in the control of our part-time council members (many of them freshly elected), who are then required to negotiate against your very experienced union reps. It's a lopsided process and the unions always win.

    I almost became a LEO about 35 years ago as I was just out of college, but the pay and benefits were pretty lackluster at that time. Boy, have things changed! You should be kissing the feet of your union reps. They are doing a fabulous job for you (at least, in this area).
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I have to chime in here ( i am former LE so take it for what it is worth ) .

    With that being said i have to ask just what is " common practice " in this neighborhood . by that i mean do folk pull over into the " prohibited " lane temporarily without censure ? is this a common practice to park in same and wait , or are they summonsed the instant they park ? I dont know , and i doubt anyone here does since ticketable rules vary city to city .

    Now i think the officer should plead guilty and pay the fine no matter what because he violated the law , no matter what happens to others . I also think any orgenisation behind him ( such as the fop ect.. ) should help with the fine on the summons . In any event its a tempest in a teapot and tho the officer violated the law ( and thus should pay ) none of his critics are willing to stand with him for a single duty shift , much less a career . He parked wrong , he got caught , pay the charge and go on . It should not however count against him in any way .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  15. #59
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    I know I'm new on this forum...but I have to say something about wording. Outside of the military all LEO's are "civilians" as well - they are just sworn to and empowered by statute, code, whatever to enforce whatever set of laws, codes, ordnances they's sworn to uphold. I understand the misnomer...

    Police response......"asking an officer to find a "legal" parking space that may be a ways away from where they may be going is unreasonable".
    I used to have an officer who'd park right in front of (Fire Lane) the Wal Mart to go in and visit his GF (mine worked there too at the time) If I had to go in there for some reason (pick something up, visit my GF, whatever - not related to a call) I'd park out in the lot...sometimes far away from the entrance. I insisted he do the same while not on "official business". It got to the point where I threatened to ticket him and have the patrol car towed if I needed to to make the point (by the way...citations to the officer are paid by the officer)

    That being said...I also think that while an officer is on lunch they should not be subject to call (unfortunately they often are approached by citizens who advise them of ongoing situations) So this is not always a realistic expectation.

    Another thing to consider...I know in my agency...if you get a citation you have to (by policy) report it within so many hours to your supervisor, who forwards it up the chain. Basically, any at fault citation is going to result in, at the very least, a written reprimand or days off without pay - this is on top of the fine you might have to pay...so in this case $500.00 plus.

    Also...while I don't have stat's with me - I do know that one of the most common complaints fielded as a supervisor was "response time" (it always took sooooooooooooo long for us to get there, when in reality when checked against dispatch it really didn't..but it was perceived to have been a long time) Now if you only have to park 20 seconds away that's not a problem...but if it's 3-4 blocks???

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